Grimstod
Machinist, Designer, and Shooter.
Me too. A .257x47Lapua would be awesome. I like the 6x47 version but seams a tad overbore. The .257 would be perfect.
New 155gr 6.5mm Berger on the horizon?
- Thread starter Grimstod
- Start date
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
The 130s may shoot flatter than heavier bullet 140gr or 155gr which is good for punching paper, but I like a heavier bullet in any given caliber for hunting. The increased sectional density (more weight on the same cross-sectional area) offers better penetration and energy at long range. Though 155gr is REALLY heavy for a 6.5 and I don't think the speed loss would be worth it. Almost too heavy for most 6.5 catridges.
A 155gr would also kind of be one of those bullets where if you build a barrel tailored to them, you're pretty much stuck trying to make them shoot because your throat is going to be way too long and your twist too fast for what is known to allow gteat accuracy with anything else. I'm happy pushing the 140 hunting VLDs at just over 3200 fps for hunting. Laser flat trajectory, excellent penetration, low recoil, and adequate energy for North American big game. I think I'll stick wit what I'm using.
A 155gr would also kind of be one of those bullets where if you build a barrel tailored to them, you're pretty much stuck trying to make them shoot because your throat is going to be way too long and your twist too fast for what is known to allow gteat accuracy with anything else. I'm happy pushing the 140 hunting VLDs at just over 3200 fps for hunting. Laser flat trajectory, excellent penetration, low recoil, and adequate energy for North American big game. I think I'll stick wit what I'm using.
It would seem that your "experience" prevented you from actually reading my post #14 above, where I provided that comparison before it dawned on you to ask. Please go back & read it, the #s are there....and are inconsequential with regard to the taking of game...
As for the posts shared since, they're further supporting the fact that Berger isn't "changing the game". Cauterico and Matrix have had 150+gr 6.5mm bullets available for years. Heck, Matrix makes a 160gr hunting bullet!!!
And then you have the issue of freebore, which I addressed in my first post, and has been re-stated by others in this thread. Heavy for caliber, super high BC bullets have fitment issues that can really only be addressed by going to a longer freebore. In some cases, throating for a super high BC bullet precludes the practical use of anything lighter than that particular bullet. And if you don't increase freebore to accommodate the heavier bullet, then its gonna sit down into the powder column and impede the ability to maximize performance in that particular cartridge. Either scenario introduce limiting factors that shooters may not wish to endure...
Which comes full circle to the whole point. BC don't mean SQUAT without MV. A cartridge needs to have the gas tank in reserve to push that heavy azz (high BC) bullet to where there's an actual, tangible advantage to the shooter. Otherwise, there's just no motivation to bother...
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Here's a question for you other 284 guys out there. Since the question regarding the 155 weight VLD has been thrown out, how about Reloader 17 now becoming an option for the 6.5-284 with that bullet ? It works wonderfully in the 284 with 162-180s. Not quite as accurate as some others but certainly has speed required to optimize the heavy bullets.
TZaun
Gold $$ Contributor
That's a good point. I can't give you a definitive answer at this exact time, but, I'm pretty sure you could at least use a 139 Scenar in its place. That bullet design with the long bearing surface should work as an alternative if the 155s don't pan out. The 136 EPS bullet is very similar and I think that would also work in a 155's place. Of course, that's also assuming they can hold together in a fast twist barrel getting pushed pretty hard. I've shot enough of the Scenars to have confidence their jacket will take it. The EPS...... don't know. Next time I strip my bolt to find the lands I'll do so with the 139 Scenar and 136 EPS and let you know if they will work with the freebore I have for the 155 Cauterucio.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
I've used RL17 in many different rifles. I'm phasing it out from all rifles that liked it as I find loads with other powders now because the claims of RL17 burning up barrels prematurely are very true. I got to see the results of it first hand on my last 6.5 Rem Mag barrel. Barrel maybe had 500 rounds and it had a massive amount of fire cracking for over 3" in front of the chamber. No saving it. RL17 has not been very temp stable in my experience either.
I'm using RL26 in the 6.5 Rem Mag now. Better temp stability and same excellent speeds.Although RL26 is is a slower burning powder better suited for heavier 6.5 bullets, it is also a VERY dense powder. Higher weight charges will take up less capacity than any other powder I've ever tested. So if you're pressed for space in the case, but want to shoot heavier bullets, RL26 might be worth a look.
RL16 is a candidate for 6.5 chambering as well. It is known to have excellent temp stability. Some claim RL16 has the best temp stability of all the powders available on the market. I couldnt find the accuracy with it in my 6.5 Rem Mag or 6.5x55 Swede, but I have another 338 cal rifle that liked it. In testing with 3 rifles, I found that RL16 burn rate is almost identical to H4350. So if you have load data in a chambering for H4350, that same data can be used to work up loads with RL16. However, it is almost the polar opposite of RL26 for density. RL16 takes up more case capacity than most other powders with identical charge weights.
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bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok, lets assume & run with that, from a 6.5x47L:
A 155gr(new bullet) @ 2600 vs. a 130(HVLD) @ 2900
est .675 G1, vs the listed .552 G1 of the HVLD:
At 600yds, the 130VLD shoots 0.7MILS flatter
And, for all that loss in trajectory, the 155 only pays ya back with 0.1MIL less wind drift. Big whoop?
Now, ask yourself if you had a choice between two bullets, one of which shot 0.7mils flatter @ 600yds, why on Earth would you take the trajectory penalty???
Only reason I see would be, retained energy on target.
To that end, consider this:
The 155 only retains barely 100 ft/lbs. advantage over the 130 ( ~1200 vs. ~1100)
So, its not like the 155 is going to hit a critter perceptibly "harder" than the 130...
Seeing the logic?
Based on your comparison here, I wouldn't think they would be a game changer either...... but what if they were used in something with a little more boiler room to push them? Something like a 6.5-300 WSM? I don't have a lot of experience with the 6.5-300 WSM, but based on my 6.5-300SAUM, I would like to think that the WSM could get these going over 2900.
What do you think?
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
Your 6.5 SAUM can match the speed of the 6.5-300 wsm. The WSM case becomes less efficient when necked down to 6.5. Slightly an overbore. Takes more powder to match the speed of smaller 6.5 rounds. Cases like the 6.5 Rem Mag can easily match the speed of the 6.5-300 wsm with any bullet, yet often uses 6 to 10 grains less powder depending on burn rate. My 6.5 Rem Mag with a 26" barrel easily pushes the 140gr Berger VLDs over 3200 fps with no pressure signs and good case life using various powders. All powder charge weights under 60gr.
the Hornady Manual puts the 160 RN at 2900 from a 24" bbled 264 so with the 26 Nosler and a 28-30 " bbl I would figure 3100-3200 would be attainable from the 155s and any bullet with a .700BC at over 3000 should really run off from the 140s at 8-900 and would be supersonic well past a mile,,
bobinpa
Gold $$ Contributor
Thanks for the input. I never realized that the SAUM was that much more efficient than the WSM. As I said, I don't have that much experience with the 6.5 WSM yet. I assumed that it was bigger enough to give more velocity. I guess that's why we should never assume....
Grimstod
Machinist, Designer, and Shooter.
When i said game changer i sorta meant for the 6.5-284. Years ago it was the caliber of choice for 1000y but now almost everyone has switched to the 284 because of some really good high bc bullets. With this high BC 6.5mm bullet would some swithc back?
B23
Gold $$ Contributor
I've only seen this new 155 next to a 140 so I can't say for sure but it does look as though Berger was able to increase the weight without adding a lot of length to the bearing surface and if that turns out to be the case, I think that'll help us shoot it faster without pressuring out so quick.
I've talked to a few guys that had trouble with this in their 7mm's with the 195's compared to the 180's. The added bearing length of the 195's prevented them from being able to shoot them fast enough to outperform the 180's because they would pressure out before they could get them running fast enough.
I've talked to a few guys that had trouble with this in their 7mm's with the 195's compared to the 180's. The added bearing length of the 195's prevented them from being able to shoot them fast enough to outperform the 180's because they would pressure out before they could get them running fast enough.
Hey guys I didn't see anyone address the fact that hornady already has the 147eld G7.351 G1 .697 form factor .858!!!! It will need a G7 BC of around .370 to equal the 147 eld in form factor. This Berger bullet is going to have to be pretty impressive to trump these figures!!!!!
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Alex Wheeler
Site $$ Sponsor
Where does that data come from? The best long range 6mm bullet is the 103 vapor trail, it also has one of the shortest bearing surfaces in its class. Then look at the ppc and the smallest 100yd groups in the world, short bearing surface 65-68 grain bullets.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
Well that's what Berger is known for. They like to keep the crown for bullet BCs. Other companies produce long range bullets with very high BCs that match or best Berger and Berger eventually answers the call with a bullet having an unmatched BC. The 147gr ELD took the crown for a short while, but it will soon yield to Berger again.
However, a good point Alex was partially making is that BC isn't everything. Of course you want to use bullets with good BCs, but accuracy is what really matters. The best accuracy does not always come from the bullets with the highest BC. The 147gr ELD may have an amazing BC, but if a 140gr Berger VLD gives me better accuracy, I have to go with the accuracy.
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ledd slinger i agree and use lapua scenars for this reason. However just in argument for the KING of BC im sure berger will create a 155g bullet that will have a higher BC than the 147 eld due to being 8g heavier but the true test I think is if they can trump that .858 form factor as an apples and apples comparison.
Ledd Slinger
Silver $$ Contributor
True, but Hornady did not trump Berger with a 140gr bullet. Excuse me if I am a little ignorant to the meaning of the term form factor...But Hornady used a 143gr bullet and a 147gr bullet to beat the 140gr VLD BC. Nosler tried to best everyone with the 142gr LRAB bullets but we're soon discovered to be flat out lying about those BCs.
No but the nosler 140 RDF has trumped all bergers 140 grain line. G7.330, G1 .658 form factor .869
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