Neck Tension questions

[Dusty Stevens]

Two tents equal 2.9 holds

 

[noload]

I was told everyone knew what everyone meant. I do not agree and I understand most simply can not deal with that. I believe the wrong standard is being used. I know; I have to explain that, I find it impossible to determine the color of a shirt with a ruler. When measuring the diameter of the bullet and inside diameter of the case neck I understand it sounds cool to use 'tension'. Outside of reloading the difference in the two diameters is referred to as bein 'interference' fit'. And then there is crush fit; I have put things together with tons of pressure.

And then there is tensions, I have tension gages, my tension gages do not measure crush fit nor do they measure interference fit.
I can measure the pressure required to seat a bullet in pounds, I can measure the amount of effort required to pull a bullet in pounds. I would like to take everyone seriously, but when seating bullets it has been found, after the discovery of seating bullets in pounds, not tensions, the interference fit is not an absolute.

F. Guffey

Dear Fguffey, I think whats going on here is that most people do not have those fancy gauges you have, and they use a certain bushing to get their bullet hold, only they say it in terms of thousands of an inch. And we all know that an annealed case is different than a hardened neck case as far as hold goes. Its just a simpified way of giving an approximation of their neck tension ( hold if you must). Your efforts spent on changing the modern day terminolgy would be better spent on you changing how to interpet what others are saying. When I seat a bullet with my Sinclair arbor press I have a mental number in my head from 1 to 10 . 1 being= (bullet movable with my fingers) I normally seat with a pressure # of 3 to 4. So thats how I will do it reguardless if its called tension or hold. And i will continue to describe it in thousands of an inch to others on this site, because I and others do not have hold force gauges.

 

[Dos XX]

 

[Gabe22BR]

Two tents equal 2.9 holds

2 bits = 22 1/2 cents ??

 

[Canadian bushman]

For those that agree neck tension matters, when should it be tested?

Before swaping primers?
After final seating depth test?

Will a loaded round favor a given neck size regardless of seating depth?

 

[dmoran]

Canadian bushman -
It is a "fine tuning" step for me, in this order: 1)powder/primer 2)seating 3)neck tension
Donovan

 

[Canadian bushman]

Canadian bushman -
It is a "fine tuning" step for me, in this order: 1)powder/primer 2)seating 3)neck tension
Donovan

Would you be willing to share why?

 

[dmoran]

Would you be willing to share why?

My own reasoning why:
Powder charges inadvertently effect accuracy, velocity and pressure the most.
Seating can effect accuracy abruptly, but more limitedly to velocity and pressure then will powder.
Neck tension effects accuracy, but more limited then does seating, with very little effect on muzzle velocity.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[Canadian bushman]

I will try, desperately, to keep that in mind when re testing neck tension.

Thank you donovan, i always appreciate your opinion.

 

[BenPerfected]

For those that agree neck tension matters, when should it be tested?

Before swaping primers?
After final seating depth test?

Will a loaded round favor a given neck size regardless of seating depth?

Much of this extensive level of testing and retesting is highly recommended by barrel manufacturers

 

[dmoran]

I will try, desperately, to keep that in mind when re testing neck tension.

Some more input; For the most part, neck tension is an adjustment to barrel timing (bullet entrance & exit time). On a pressure scale/trace, neck tension effects bullet engagement timing and pressure, that can also change the shape of the pressure curve (barrel timing), but has little effect on peak pressure or exit pressure (Mv).

When testing with a pressure trace system, if I want to slow down "bullet exit time," I lighten neck tension. If I want to speed up "bullet exit time", I increase neck tension. Neither of which will have much effect (if any) on muzzle velocity, and is why I consider it a "finer tuning" aspect.

Donovan

 

[jlow]

My own reasoning why:
Powder charges inadvertently effect accuracy, velocity and pressure the most.
Seating can effect accuracy abruptly, but more limitedly to velocity and pressure then will powder.
Neck tension effects accuracy, but more limited then does seating, with very little effect on muzzle velocity.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

Seems like both seating depth and neck tension both affect barrel time which is why it affects PRECISION. If they are different, I would like to hear reasons.

 

[dmoran]

Seems like both seating depth and neck tension both affect barrel time which is why it affects PRECISION. If they are different, I would like to hear reasons.

On a pressure trace, seating depth has little effect on engagement pressure, but can have some effect on peak pressure as well as exit pressure (Mv). Not at all in the extent as powder charges, but still some effects.

As I wrote above, neck tension effects bullet engagement timing/pressure, that can also change the shape of the pressure curve, but has little effect on peak pressure or exit pressure (Mv).
And is why I feel it has less overall effect on accuracy then will seating, and is more of a fine tuning aspect then both seating and powder - IME

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[charlesasmith]

Myself, if I want the best accuracy out of my load, I have to test neck tension to see what amount produces the best accuracy. And at times revisit tension as the brass is cycled.
Donovan

Donovan:

How often are you annealing your brass when loading? Seems as if neck tension would vary if annealing is not done prior to each reload. I am just getting ready to start annealing for the 1st time.

Chuck

 

[dmoran]

Chuck -

Currently, for several years now, I am not annealing my brass in my comp rifles (6Dasher), but I have annealed in prior years in other calibers. Regardless, it is to my opinion neck tension may need to be revisted when at different cycles of brass hardness (annealed or not), to get the most accuracy potential.

With that I feel your concern has a lot of merit and an aspect to be considered.
Donovan

 

[jlow]

On a pressure trace, seating depth has little effect on engagement pressure, but can have some effect on peak pressure as well as exit pressure (Mv). Not at all in the extent as powder charges, but still some effects.

As I wrote above, neck tension effects bullet engagement timing/pressure, that can also change the shape of the pressure curve, but has little effect on peak pressure or exit pressure (Mv).
And is why I feel it has less overall effect on accuracy then will seating, and is more of a fine tuning aspect then both seating and powder - IME

My 2-Cents
Donovan

That would make sense that seating depth likely affects case volume which I would guess affect peak pressure and MV. Neck tension is what’s holding the bullet and if one assumes the neck don’t blow out before the bullet is pushed out (let's not start that discussion again..), it should affect bullet engagement timing/pressure. But if engagement timing is affected, it should also affect barrel time.

Precision (how consistent the round shoots) is affected I think by barrel time i.e. when the bullet exits the crown. If neck tension is not affecting barrel time, not sure how it affects precision – is there factor that affects precision not by barrel time?

 

[dmoran]

jlow -
Maybe you missed what I wrote in my post #81:
"For the most part, neck tension is an adjustment to barrel timing (bullet entrance & exit time)...."
With that, I am in total agreement with you !.!.!
Donovan

 

[dmoran]

Your guess is as good as any, and I don't even try to act like I know. This is why I just test everything on paper. In my case, for rifles that can shoot the difference and need to be tuned, I do it at 1k. If there is anything, and mean anything, wrong with any aspect of rifle/load/system, it will show as vertical at 1000. Things that don't work are blatantly obvious, and things that do get verified. My picture that Donovan corrected, let's just say it's been verified!


Tom

For the record, I have hired Tom to be a full time "tester"... lol
While the pay is nil, and he doesn't always test what I suggest, I do credit his results in high regards.
Donovan

 

[jlow]

jlow -
Maybe you missed what I wrote in my post #81:
"For the most part, neck tension is an adjustment to barrel timing (bullet entrance & exit time)...."
With that, I am in total agreement with you !.!.!
Donovan

Yes, sorry I did miss that.

 

[dmoran]

Yes, sorry I did miss that.

Probably typing/replying about the same time is why.... and figured you may have missed it !.!