Neck Tension questions

[noload]

I think all the people that understand neck tension (oops)... bullet Hold, have shared enough and have clamed-up for the moment.
If one was to really think about what neck tension does to powder ignition and the effects it has on velocity, he would be able to solve his problems tuning.

 

[jcampbellsmith]

Absolutely not, look at Toms ladder test he posted. Thats shot a 1000 yards. The obvious winner is .0047" neck tension (263 bushing). Tom and these guys are giving away GOLD.

Perhaps, but have the 262 and 264 bushing loads been tuned to the same degree in terms of powder and seating depth? All the target tells me is that on that test the 263 shot best, but there's no info on other key data.

Regards

JCS

 

[lawrence97]

If 263 shot the best, the only reason to revisit 262 and 264 is if you had a doubt or flaw in your testing. To me the neck tension testing at long range is the final step in my testing after I have done powder and seating depth and I see no reason to revisit them.
The neck tension testing is a very fine adjustment to an already good load and I can only notice a difference when tested at long range.
I don't know how to explain the process any further but it's only a few rounds and easy to test. Others stick to .001-.002 and do well so I guess it depends on how much time or ammo you want to spend and what your end goal is.

 

[dkhunt14]

Tom it must be like that die that JLC makes. The special one that nobody else has. I think it was a 6.5 something. The one that doesn't size the body any. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

My results are pretty much the same as yours. It is also obvious that a few responding to this thread don't shoot long-range target or they would know. LOL Matt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

The message here is to never assume, test everything and you may find your gun likes something that goes against conventional wisdom. If it goes against your rules and you dont test it, good. You'll be easy to beat I agree with Tom. Enough free info to those who want to argue with it.

 

[dkhunt14]

It' depends on how you are loading jumped or jamming .Larry

I have a question for you. You always say you don't shoot in the lands because it makes pressure. If that's true how would you know if it made a difference? Matt

 

[fguffey]

tom said: ↑
Mikecr,Would you refer to the target I posted on page one. Please explain how sizing more than 2 thousandths is a waste of time. While it may take a rifle capable of shooting the difference, the results are the results. Tom
Click to expand...
The purpose of testing is to learn something from results. I don't know what you learned but your picture tells us nothing, as the conditions and results are not defined. It seems merely an abstract.
This discussion began about ~2thou neck tension as a standard, and it appears you didn't test 2thou tension. Or, maybe you did, and didn't bring it into basis to counter any of my rules. You didn't qualify the conditions so that we could understand your sizing at all. Was it partial, FL? Have you considered normal sizing with an adjustment to powder? Seems to me that if you're actually producing any more tension than that provided by normal spring back to bearing, and need this to shoot 'better', your powder load may not be optimum, and/or your seating might be off from best. There is at least that potential so far.

I'll never suggest that testing is a bad approach. But we should accept conclusions when we understand them (when they make sense).

I was told everyone knew what everyone meant. I do not agree and I understand most simply can not deal with that. I believe the wrong standard is being used. I know; I have to explain that, I find it impossible to determine the color of a shirt with a ruler. When measuring the diameter of the bullet and inside diameter of the case neck I understand it sounds cool to use 'tension'. Outside of reloading the difference in the two diameters is referred to as bein 'interference' fit'. And then there is crush fit; I have put things together with tons of pressure.

And then there is tensions, I have tension gages, my tension gages do not measure crush fit nor do they measure interference fit.
I can measure the pressure required to seat a bullet in pounds, I can measure the amount of effort required to pull a bullet in pounds. I would like to take everyone seriously, but when seating bullets it has been found, after the discovery of seating bullets in pounds, not tensions, the interference fit is not an absolute.

F. Guffey

 

[fastarget]

If 263 shot the best, the only reason to revisit 262 and 264 is if you had a doubt or flaw in your testing. To me the neck tension testing at long range is the final step in my testing after I have done powder and seating depth and I see no reason to revisit them.
The neck tension testing is a very fine adjustment to an already good load and I can only notice a difference when tested at long range.
I don't know how to explain the process any further but it's only a few rounds and easy to test. Others stick to .001-.002 and do well so I guess it depends on how much time or ammo you want to spend and what your end goal is.

I agree with Lawrence, I have been testing different loads and tensions. To confuse the issue, now I have loads with different tensions shooting one hole groups at 100 m, so as soon as snow and mud permits, these same loads will be tested at long range. 100 yd testing sorted out seating, and nodes, but the real test has to be how they perform at the distance they are intended for.

 

[dmoran]

I believe the wrong standard is being used.

Like Tom, I'm cool with the difference .....
You roll with "hold".... We'll roll with "tension"... in the end it all works out the same !.!.!

There that's solved,
Donovan

 

[fguffey]

Like Tom, I'm cool with the difference .....
You roll with "hold".... We'll roll with "tension"... in the end it all works out the same !.!.!

There that's solved,

I would like to take everyone seriously, but when seating bullets it has been found, after the discovery of seating bullets in pounds, not tensions, the interference fit is not an absolute.

And I always ask; “How can that be?”

It would appear there are those that assume the interference fit between the case neck and bullet will result in the same amount of bullet hold. In the absence of a tension gage a reloader is left with measuring bullet seating effort in pounds. Then there is a spread, should I suggest reloaders that are using tensions sort cases for testing based on the amount of effort required to seat bullets.


Again, I have tension gages, I have deflection gages None of my tension gages measure in tensions like 5 tensions, or 30 tensions


F. Guffey

 

[dkhunt14]

Tension- the state of being Stretched tight
Tension- mental or emotional strain
Matt

 

[dmoran]

Again, I have tension gages, I have deflection gages None of my tension gages measure in tensions like 5 tensions, or 30 tensions

I have force gauges and deflection gauges. None measure in "holds", like 5-holds or 30-holds.
Hold works for you.... tension works for me.... in the end it all works out the same !.!.!
Donovan

 

[Dusty Stevens]

I like 4 holds on my bullets. They work better in the cam over bump presses when i grind my dies down

 

[vinny]

Tension- the state of being Stretched tight
Tension- mental or emotional strain
Matt

Matt
"Tension" mental or emotional strain is what happened to me after reading this thread. OMG

 

[Alex Wheeler]

And I always ask; “How can that be?”

It would appear there are those that assume the interference fit between the case neck and bullet will result in the same amount of bullet hold. In the absence of a tension gage a reloader is left with measuring bullet seating effort in pounds. Then there is a spread, should I suggest reloaders that are using tensions sort cases for testing based on the amount of effort required to seat bullets.


Again, I have tension gages, I have deflection gages None of my tension gages measure in tensions like 5 tensions, or 30 tensions


F. Guffey

Your right in how you are measuring bullet hold, but thats not what happens in a rifle. The neck expands to release the bullet, so the actual interference fit is what shows up on the target. When you measure force your measuring the friction between the bullet and neck, bushing size has little effect on that, while neck surface finish has a large effect on that number. I think most of us thought the same way, but when actual tests show your wrong you have to go with the results. Seating force does not matter on paper, interference fit commonly called tension does. I tested this a few years back when I first got my force gauge, so have others. Scientific theories are great but at the end of the day the targets tell the truth. Tom has multiple rifles that are consistent 2-3" guns at 1k. He definately has the tuning down, regaurdless of termanology.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

And you do this to headspace your brass?

My chambers do not have headspace!

 

[Joe Salt]

Dusty what are you shooting a muzzle Loader? Or one of those new laser guns.

Joe Salt

 

[dmoran]

Tom -
Corrected your 1000yd test to FGuffey terminology to be more politically correct to his standards:




Now he should be able to roll with your target......
Donovan

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Thank you donovan. Now youre learning how them holds work

 

[Tozguy]

Tension = two tents