Neck Tension questions

[Dusty Stevens]

Im not sure what era lee lives in anyway

 

[dmoran]

Im not sure what era lee lives in anyway

Lee might sell more if they called them "Lee Holding Dies" instead of crimping dies.

Donovan

 

[Dusty Stevens]

You can sure put a lot of holds on one with a crimping die

 

[Tozguy]

Lee might sell more if they called them "Lee Holding Dies" instead of crimping dies.

Donovan

Or maybe 'Bullet coating compensators'?

 

[Tozguy]

And the Guys with the most record please Stand up! These guys are trying to help you none believers. I believe It works.

Joe Salt

Now that you guys are standing up may I ask who showed you how to reload? If you were following someone already winning how did you get ahead of him/her? Did you do any of your own thinking at some point?

 

[dkhunt14]

Now that you guys are standing up may I ask who showed you how to reload? If you were following someone already winning how did you get ahead of him/her? Did you do any of your own thinking at some point?

I learned mostly from loading and shooting. I tested everything imaginable. When I started I burnt up 3 barrels just testing. I had the desire that I wanted to win. I have worked hard at 1000 yard BR. I also talked to a lot of people and weighed out what they said. One time a guy at the match told me never ever do this. The first thing I did when I got home was load up some shells and see why I shouldn't ever do it. I have really experimented. Matt

 

[dkhunt14]

I always was an "experimenter" type. It started when I was young. My dad but the RCBS kit for his salvage 7mm mag. So I would read the book along side him, and watch him load. Then he'd go to work, and I would make some up, and basically STEAL the rifle and go test. I had caught him, and he didn't even know it, and I would have got my butt kicked if I told him lol.

When I moved back to North Dakota after high school at 19, I met a girl. Her dad got me into a bit "finer" hand loading. One of his pet peeves was the case mouth/crown. I still try to make them really nice!

Then I met Leo Anerson when I moved to Montana. He got me hooked on 1000 yard benchrest and the dasher. Doubtful if I'll ever "catch" him. He doesn't post here much, but his career has been mind blowing.

Tom

But TOM I bet you learned a lot by experimenting and testing. Matt

 

[mikecr]

It makes sense that a 'peak' could be associated with the yield point of the brass. Would it not be possible to get an idea of where this peak is for a specific brass lot by seating a bullet and then pulling it? The neck OD of the empty unfired neck should indicate a threshold beyond which there is no extra tension to be added by smaller neck sizing.
Could this become a way to determine when its time to anneal or time for a bushing change?

It was a ways back, but earlier I posted tension rules that answer your questions here.
One was that tension amounts to no more than springback against seated bullet bearing. seating/pull friction is irrelevant to this.
One was that we do not measure tension. This, only because there is not a tool on the market yet.
Do this testing to LEARN about it, it's easy: Neck size a length covering seating bullet bearing and no more (typical seating, typical bushing die, with the expander removed). Seat a bullet, measure the neck OD. Now pull the bullet and measure neck OD again, to see the springback that is gripping your bullet. This is your tension. Then go down another 5thou in bushing size, same seating depth and die setting(sizing length). Do the same test and you will see 5thou more downsizing made zero difference to tension. That you just upsized the neck again(undoing downsizing) using a bullet as an expander(and bullets are not made for this). If you were to shoots lots from these two conditions across a good chronograph, you would see no difference in MV.
Also do the test with adjustments to LENGTH of downsizing, and with this you will see MV change. It follows the rules I posted.
Also go ahead and take some of those same sized necks to squeaky clean, and some lubed, and fire them. No difference in MV. Friction means nothing directly about your tension.
Then extend length of sizing beyond seated bullet bearing, and now you will see MV change with different size bushings. You're now creating tension beyond bearing area spring back. If your chronograph is truly good, you'll also see ES go up with this, as increased tension means increased tension variance. You can counter this with NORMAL neck sizing and development with full seating depth testing and the right speed of powder to reach a good load density and optimum peak pressure.
Some folks insist that annealing is a must/improvement, but this really only serves to cover for excess sizing. Where you don't need excess sizing, you don't need a bunch of annealing, unless that happened to produce tension your load development showed as best. Keep in mind that annealed necks produce least tension. And if you do it really consistent, it would produce least tension variance. I figure this is how folks are getting away with FL sizing of necks.

Anyway, to consider how expansion fits in, go back to my rules. It's right there.

 

[Tozguy]

Some more input; For the most part, neck tension is an adjustment to barrel timing (bullet entrance & exit time). On a pressure scale/trace, neck tension effects bullet engagement timing and pressure, that can also change the shape of the pressure curve (barrel timing), but has little effect on peak pressure or exit pressure (Mv).

When testing with a pressure trace system, if I want to slow down "bullet exit time," I lighten neck tension. If I want to speed up "bullet exit time", I increase neck tension. Neither of which will have much effect (if any) on muzzle velocity, and is why I consider it a "finer tuning" aspect.

Donovan

So adjusting bullet exit time in this manner (changing neck tension) is the ultimate refinement of an already well tuned load. The objective being to get the bullet to exit the muzzle when the barrel is in a certain segment of its vibration cycle? Once the best neck 'tension' has been found, does it ever have to be adjusted again for different conditions or for other considerations?

 

[Alex Wheeler]

From what I have seen, the top guys don't ask if something will work, they test it. Dont post here asking a question and take any answer as fact no matter you it comes from. All rifles are different and we are all still learning. TEST EVERYTHING. And there are no rules in reloading. Mike, you keep on with your same opinion on neck tension. Your rules dont explain why a rifle will shoot better with .005" than it will with .002". If the bushing does nothing after a certain point because the bullet has expanded the case neck then why can we see changes on the target up past .006"? I was firmly in your camp until I tested it for myself, sorry but on this subject you are wrong.

 

[Tozguy]

Very good, why .002 do you think?

By the Way, The questions are in General, apply to reloading all calibers.........

Would it be fair to conclude that .002'' neck tension is a good starting point but that it might need to be adjusted for ultimate long range accuracy with jumped bullet seating?

Can a barrel tuner be a viable alternative to fine tuning neck tension in this situation?

In a different situation, such as shooting jammed bullets at 100 to 200 yd., how much improvement can be expected from adjusting neck tension?

Tom, zfast, mike, I believe you all. Wish I could do as much testing as you guys. Till then I feel for fastarget if he is trying to get a 'unified' theory from a complex set of opinions.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Would it be fair to conclude that .002'' neck tension is a good starting point but that it might need to be adjusted for ultimate long range accuracy with jumped bullet seating?

Can a barrel tuner be a viable alternative to fine tuning neck tension in this situation?

In a different situation, such as shooting jammed bullets at 100 to 200 yd., how much improvement can be expected from adjusting neck tension?

A lot!! When I use .290 bushings my groups open way up... Start shrinking at .289 and I use a .288.. I need to try a .287... This is in a 6.5x47L with .290 loaded necks and .292 fire formed before sizing... We're talking 1.00in vs. .3in...,, or 1.2in vs. .50in. all day just by adjusting bushing size.. This is after all the other steps are done right though..

 

[Joe Salt]

Tozguy I've been Reloading for about 50 years! I've never blown up a rifle and have always tried to stay on the safe side of things. I started by reading every loading book I could find. But there was nothing in any of them that gave me the fine points of loading like I'm doing now. When I started shooting 1000 yard matches the world record was 8.500" Now they are shooting in the 2.750! That Matt holds for Heavy Gun. That's 10 shots. They didn't get there buy just loading and saying, WELL THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH! So I guess the answer to your question is start at .002 if you want. I've seen guys push the bullets in by hand and done well. I've pulled bullets then just seated them without sizing and done well. If you are stuck on just doing one thing and expecting different results you are doomed! TEST TEST TEST

Joe Salt

 

[dmoran]

So adjusting bullet exit time in this manner (changing neck tension) is the ultimate refinement of an already well tuned load. The objective being to get the bullet to exit the muzzle when the barrel is in a certain segment of its vibration cycle?

Personally, while I do consider neck tension more of a refined aspect in load development, I would not consider it as the ultimate refined aspect, just one of the refining aspects. To keep my loads in tune, I typically do not change neck tension, instead I make small refined adjustments to seating and/or the charge.

Once the best neck 'tension' has been found, does it ever have to be adjusted again for different conditions or for other considerations?

I believe there can be merit to revisiting neck tension on cycles of hardness. And believe optimal neck tension is dependent on brass hardness.

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It was a ways back......................

Mike - while much of what you wrote I respect, there is several parts that my own testings are in opposition of yours.
But this is nothing new, since so often what one person finds to be true someone else's results are opposing.
Which proves to me, we all have to test for ourselves, to find what differences work best individually.

My 2-Cents
Donovan

 

[Tozguy]

Tozguy I've been Reloading for about 50 years! I've never blown up a rifle and have always tried to stay on the safe side of things. I started by reading every loading book I could find. But there was nothing in any of them that gave me the fine points of loading like I'm doing now. When I started shooting 1000 yard matches the world record was 8.500" Now they are shooting in the 2.750! That Matt holds for Heavy Gun. That's 10 shots. They didn't get there buy just loading and saying, WELL THAT'S CLOSE ENOUGH! So I guess the answer to your question is start at .002 if you want. I've seen guys push the bullets in by hand and done well. I've pulled bullets then just seated them without sizing and done well. If you are stuck on just doing one thing and expecting different results you are doomed! TEST TEST TEST

Joe Salt

Joe, you got me there, I've only been reloading for 40 years. But I have never shot at 1000 yds and probably won't in this lifetime for lack of facilities within a reasonable drive from home.

I am fully aware of the record at 1000 yds and find it awesome. That's why I am so interested in how they do it. Because I ask questions and try to understand something its not because I am 'stuck on just doing one thing' but because I have very limited opportunity to test everything that I would like to test. So I have to consider my options carefully. Nevertheless, it is a tall order for anyone to test for themselves what everybody else is/has already tested.

I didn't realize that this thread was about how to set a world record at 1000 yds. I apologize and will shut up now.

 

[dkhunt14]

Joe, you got me there, I've only been reloading for 40 years. But I have never shot at 1000 yds and probably won't in this lifetime for lack of facilities within a reasonable drive from home.

I am fully aware of the record at 1000 yds and find it awesome. That's why I am so interested in how they do it. Because I ask questions and try to understand something its not because I am 'stuck on just doing one thing' but because I have very limited opportunity to test everything that I would like to test. So I have to consider my options carefully. Nevertheless, it is a tall order for anyone to test for themselves what everybody else is/has already tested.

I didn't realize that this thread was about how to set a world record at 1000 yds. I apologize and will shut up now.

It's not how to set a record but to visit something that might give you better accuracy at distance. This was coming from guys that have broken a bunch of records. Not just one target. Like the season aggregate records, both 6 and 10 match and multiple times. Matt

 

[Joe Salt]

Yes your Highness!

Joe Salt

 

[dkhunt14]

Yes your Highness!

Joe Salt

I was talking about TOM and Alex. Matt

 

[BCBRAD]

Read with interest the different theories and practice on controlling neck tension.
I have struggled with a higher ES than I like in a 223, did all the normal things to lower it. Eventually I tried a light crimp with the Lee crimp die. ES is lower and on target results are better. Its a Tikka 1:8 Varmint rifle, its now easier to group <moa ,10 shots at 100m and 1/4 moa 5 shots.
The theory, me thinks, is that the 'tension' of the crimp (and it being consistent) over comes the varying tension of the neck size ,lubricity etc.
EG: say neck tension varies between 1X and 2X value then if I induce a 3X value, that of the crimp then the other values,1 and 2 are negated.
Make any sense?

 

[Mozella]

Have any of you guys ever used the shape of the carbon ring around the neck to aid in tuning neck tension?? I've seen by looking at the carbon ring shape when I need to adjust neck tension.. The results seem to be seen on paper as well... It seems to me one needs a sine/cosine shape and ring on the lower half of the neck for proper release and expansion of the neck... What about yall???

When I first began hand loading I started with a sine function and later a cosine function. But as I gained experience I changed my neck tension setting in an attempt to make the carbon ring resemble the lemniscate of Bernoulli for my .223 rounds and a simple cardioid for my 6mm BR cases.