Neck sizing ?

[Hoier]

Ok, Right now I am running Forester Ultra die set. I am thinking neck sizing should be my next step. I am looking at the Forester neck sizing die but would I be giving up anything by not going with a bushing die? Also what are the advantages of neck sizing besides not overworking the brass.

 

[artbosco]

Re: Neck sizing?

I am looking at the Forester neck sizing die but would I be giving up anything by not going with a bushing die? Also what are the advantages of neck sizing besides not overworking the brass.

By not going to a bushing die you give up the option of fine tuning your load.

When you only neck size brass, you DO overwork it!

It's NOT a matter of frequency, It's a matter of the distance brass has to be worked/pushed back to its original dimension and the additional force required to do that, that defines Overworking.

When you full length size, regardless of chamber size, you're pushing the shoulder down about .001", pushing it inward about .0005" and pushing in the base/head area about .001", and squeezing down the neck a requisite distance, each time you pull the handle on the press. To do all of that, you need only one die.

When you neck size only, the body of your case is not touched and continues to expand a small amount each time it's fired, until such time, that you can no longer chamber it. To bring it back into the original designed dimension now requires an additional die [more money for the die manufacturers, now you own TWO], and a greater force to get it back to the designers specs [hence more force, over a greater distance = overworking]

By Full Length Sizing each and every time you reload you ensure: 1. The brass is worked very little, 2. You'll always be able to chamber your perfectly dimensioned round, and 3. You'll only need one die [preferably a bushing die].

 

[bozo699]

Re: Neck sizing?

I am looking at the Forester neck sizing die but would I be giving up anything by not going with a bushing die? Also what are the advantages of neck sizing besides not overworking the brass.

By not going to a bushing die you give up the option of fine tuning your load.

When you only neck size brass, you DO overwork it!

It's NOT a matter of frequency, It's a matter of the distance brass has to be worked/pushed back to its original dimension and the additional force required to do that, that defines Overworking.

When you full length size, regardless of chamber size, you're pushing the shoulder down about .001", pushing it inward about .0005" and pushing in the base/head area about .001", and squeezing down the neck a requisite distance, each time you pull the handle on the press. To do all of that, you need only one die.

When you neck size only, the body of your case is not touched and continues to expand a small amount each time it's fired, until such time, that you can no longer chamber it. To bring it back into the original designed dimension now requires an additional die [more money for the die manufacturers, now you own TWO], and a greater force to get it back to the designers specs [hence more force, over a greater distance = overworking]

By Full Length Sizing each and every time you reload will ensure: 1. The brass is worked very little, 2. You'll always be able to chamber your perfectly dimensioned round, and 3. You'll only need one die [preferably a bushing die].

I agree with outdoorsman 100% the only thing I would add and I think he would agree is if you went one step further and buy a quality custom f/l bushing die you will be sizing the precise amount needed for YOUR chamber and depending on how hot you load it your brass will last a very long time!
Wayne.

 

[Hoier]

So a Harrels would be what you mean right?

 

[artbosco]

So a Harrell's would be what you mean right?

There are many fine custom die makers.

However, for $75 shipped, from Harrell's: http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207 , you not only get all the proper sizing dimensions built into the die, you also get a bushing cavity with the right amount of play to ensure that only about 70% of the neck is sized. The remaining 30%, that's not sized, ensures the neck [and the entire cartridge] is centered in the chamber. Again, all for a modest price!

 

[Hoier]

So are there any advantages to neck sizing?

 

[KevinThomas]

I'd be tempted to add something here, but Outdoorsman's already pegged it perfectly. Advantages to neck sizing? None, assuming you're doing your F/L sizing correctly. And he's spot on in that you can neck size only and still be grossly overworking your brass, if your neck/bushing size is too small. The key to all of this stuff is correctness in measurment. If you're F/L sizing, nad have measured the bump, you won't be overworking the brass. If your neck sizing with too small a bushing, you're overworking it.

Neck sizing brings virtually nothing to the party, aside from the occasional chambering problem. Stick to the F/L, do it corrrectly, and you'll be way ahead of the curve.

 

[artbosco]

Are there any advantages to neck sizing?

Neck sizing only? I see none.

Neck sizing as part of Full Length sizing? YES.

As I mentioned in another thread, when Randy Robinett recommended I go from a .325" bushing to a 324" bushing in my 30BR, I went from cloverleaf groups to one hole groups.

Once you find the load your barrel likes, you Fine tune it with Neck Tension and bullet Seating Depth.

 

[Hoier]

Ok, thank you guys.

 

[Bobthenailer]

With what has been mentioned is this a good die set up, use a bushing die with the proper size bushing (in this case a .239 bushing for a .242 neck, turned case necks of course) then adjust the FL bushing die to just bump the shoulder -.002" from fire formed measured length. adjust the bushing to float enough in the die to size the entire neck.

 

[artbosco]

With what has been mentioned is this a good die set up, use a bushing die with the proper size bushing, adjust the FL bushing die to just bump the shoulder, then adjust the bushing to float enough in the die to size the entire neck.

Yes, Yes, and I recommend you adjust the float to size only 70% of the neck. If you lock it down, so there is no float, the entire neck should be sized. One of the things I like about the Harrell's is that the bushing cavity will not allow you to lock it down. It's made with a 30% float. You tighten down the top after inserting the bushing and if you shake it you can hear the bushing moving back and forth. The only adjustment I make on the Harrell's die is the adjustment for the decapping rod and the adjustment for the outside locking ring for the press. When you send them fire formed brass they send you a die with properly designed inside dimensions that push the brass inward the correct amount. Here's what it looks like: http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail Hope I answered your questions.

 

[bozo699]

I agree with outdoorsmans statement 100%
Wayne.

 

[Bobthenailer]

Thanks for the help

 

[LRPV]

Do the Harrels dies take Redding bushings or do they take a special bushing?
Jason

 

[shooter63]

im pretty certain they take either redding or wilson shooter63

 

[bozo699]

im pretty certain they take either redding or wilson shooter63

Alan you are correct, they will use either Wilson or Redding.
Wayne.

 

[4runnerman]

I see lots of valid points here,but am at a loss as to statements like ( you gain nothing). Once a case is fire formed in your chamber and you neck size and bump the shoulder back, 1- You have a much better case as accuracy goes. The advantages of neck sizing are for accuracy and less case stress.
As a FRT class shooter. I know of no one that full lenght sizes their brass. This is insane. Most if not all will fire form their brass before they even use it. I for one do it myself. 4gns pistol powder,cream of wheat and toilet paper. Why would you not want FF cases for your rifle?>

 

[Heavies]

I see lots of valid points here,but am at a loss as to statements like ( you gain nothing). Once a case is fire formed in your chamber and you neck size and bump the shoulder back, 1- You have a much better case as accuracy goes. The advantages of neck sizing are for accuracy and less case stress.
As a FRT class shooter. I know of no one that full lenght sizes their brass. This is insane. Most if not all will fire form their brass before they even use it. I for one do it myself. 4gns pistol powder,cream of wheat and toilet paper. Why would you not want FF cases for your rifle?>

Basically you want the consistency of the cases to all be the same. By FL sizing every time, the load you work up will be with the cases at the set FL sized dimension. If you neck size only, the brass will be different sizes every time you fire it, then the brass will become difficult to chamber. You have to FL size anyway, unless you are going to toss the brass. You are then starting the process all over again.

After fire forming to your chamber + FL size = All the brass is the same size.

 

[LHSmith]

....and....... when shooting competition.....you want minimal effort to operate the bolt......less bag upset. Remember not every piece of brass has the same spring back rate .....even from same lot, subjected to same loads, fired the same number of times (although re-annealing helps in this regard). The vast majority of short-range BR use FLS ------albeit many are custom FL dies that are optimally sized to their specific chamber.

 

[bozo699]

I see lots of valid points here,but am at a loss as to statements like ( you gain nothing). Once a case is fire formed in your chamber and you neck size and bump the shoulder back, 1- You have a much better case as accuracy goes. The advantages of neck sizing are for accuracy and less case stress.
As a FRT class shooter. I know of no one that full lenght sizes their brass. This is insane. Most if not all will fire form their brass before they even use it. I for one do it myself. 4gns pistol powder,cream of wheat and toilet paper. Why would you not want FF cases for your rifle?>

4runnerman,
You are neck sizing and bumping the shoulder so your not holding true to the thoughts of neck sizing only anyway because your bumping so why don't you just go all the way and f/l size? as mentioned in the last two posts the key to accuracy is consistency. No one is saying not to ff your brass, most if not all of us do that, the brass is formed to saami specs, load ff to your chamber then use a quality f/l die to size the minimal amount needed to reliably cycle in your chamber. neck sizing only is 1950's short range br practices that aren't even used by many anymore in that sport, neck sizing just doesn't make good sense from a accuracy point nor from the point of long brass life, f/l sizing however does on both accounts.
Wayne.

p.s, welcome to the forum 4runnerman