Man I am confused????

[Tozguy]

Al, is neck turning a necessity to get good results from a bushing die?

Well....think of it this way: The hole in the neck bushing is perfectly round. What happens when you push a neck that's not round (due to wall thickness inconsistencies, etc.) into a round hole? The sized neck will now be round on the outside but not round on the inside...the inconsistent thickness has to go somewhere. Now, before someone puts my feet to the fire and points out (correctly) that a fired case neck is perfectly round (or at least as round as the neck area of the chamber is)....that would be correct. But the inconsistency is still inside the neck.

One of the major components to accuracy is geting the seated bullet so that it enters the rifling in as exact a manner as possible....how is this going to happen with a bullet that's already off axis relative to the throat?

I'm not going to hazard a guess as to how much neck thickness variance you need to have before the use of a bushing type die either negates any benefits or even makes thngs worse. I just know what I've found in my own a-b-a testing with my competition rigs as well as my factory and custom barrelled hunting stuff, is all. Much of this has to do with the throat diameter (how much over the bullet shank diameter the throat is), the lead angle of the throat, how the case is sized relative to shoulder 'bump' and how much the shoulder/body angle is reduced in diameter in the sizing process.

What don't you like about a micrometer top seater? My measurements have shown that the micrometer is 100% reliable and repeatable.

I didn't write that I don't like micrometer tops. What I wrote was: "I strongly suggest a standard, non-micrometer top, non-stainless Wilson seater."

Good shootin'. -Al

Al, thanks for the reply. I apologize if I put words in your mouth. I'm not trying to prove anything, just to learn. Still would like to know why you strongly suggested what you did.

 

[Tozguy]

Tozguy -

Scenario for you:
Say you have 3-rounds loaded to "group test" that have not been F/L sized. You close the bolt on the 1st round with no resistance. The 2nd round closes with a faint resistance on the bottom of closer. The 3rd round closes with some resistance.

Would you expect these 3-rounds to the scenario to hold precision accuracy and shoot into a small cluster at say 100yds?
Would you expect these 3-rounds to the scenario to hold near the same vertical dispersion at say 800yds?

My input would be: "no" I would not expect precision accuracy to come from this scenario, because the variance resistances to bolt closer is headspacing indifference to all 3 cases, which will create a pressure indifference to all 3-rounds fired, in the form of velocity ES, hence the words "fly'ers" and "vertical dispersion".
The only way to insure predictable POI and precision accuracy is to insure the same amount of headspace from all 3-rounds. The ability to insure the headspace is done in a F/L or Body die, by bumping the shoulder (headspace) to a equal point/amount.
From which, for repeatable brass spring, the exact same rituals need to be done to the brass every cycle, to keep an equal spring going.

When testing with a pressure trace system and chronograph, when ever I have headspace indifference in my cases, pressure and velocity ES goes up. When ever one case is contacting the chamber wall more then another (more resistance to bolt closer) pressure and velocity ES is greatly indorsed.

This is why I will always bump the shoulder and resize the case walls (F/L resize) to ensure a consistent headspace and to insure there is no contact with the brass and the chamber-walls at any point with in the chamber, to eliminate pressure and velocity indifference (ES and vertical) between the cases/brass.

Donovan

Donovan, thanks for the reply. No, I do not expect that 3 rounds each with different headspace would all go in the same hole at any distance. Mine don't even when they have consistent headspace When fireforming virgin brass I never expect to see the same POI as for subsequent firings.

I'm not tryiong to talk anyone out of resizing the way Erik, yourself and others have described. When normal brass spring back doesn't give enough headspace it makes sense to body or FL size. With hot loads that might mean FL sizing on every firing. With more moderate loads normal brass spring back might be enough to keep headspace stable and functional for several reloadings without having to bump the shoulder. I don't see why the fired brass coming out of a chamber would be any less consistent than brass coming out of a FL die.
I have no trouble believing the story about a bench rest specialist who loaded the same case many times without any kind of sizing whatsoever. Not that this is an example to follow but to illustrate that there are circumstances where something less than FL sizing may be completely adequate.

 

[AlNyhus]

Al, thanks for the reply. I apologize if I put words in your mouth. I'm not trying to prove anything, just to learn. Still would like to know why you strongly suggested what you did.

I just find the standard Wilson seater easier to use than the stainless micrometer top version.. The other nice thing is that being 12L14, it's easily lapped for a better fit to your sized cases, should that be needed.

I'm not real smart, so simple works better for me....... -Al

 

[AlNyhus]

To ad a bit to Donovan's excellent reply:

Think about how the reciever is 'loaded' differently by the bolt with a combination of cases that fit easily, somewhat snug and very tight. With tight cases the back of the bolt is loaded harder against the top of the rear reciever bridge. Now, all bolts are levered up @ the rear due to the pressure on the cocking cam from the trigger sear, but it's all about consistency.

These guns are basically big tuning forks...stuff like this matters. Maybe not in all guns (lots of variables, here), but you get the idea.

FWIW. -Al

 

[LRPV]

Al, what if anything, do you do to your non-stainless willson dies to keep them from rusting where you touch them and do you do anything to the inside of the die to keep rust at bay? I have only had one non-stainless wilson and it looked pretty ugly in a short time. I ended up spraying it with Balistol and storing it but it was kind of a pain.
Jason

 

[AlNyhus]

LRPV: I put the seater in a Zip Loc baggie and toss in a cleaning patch wet with Hoppes #9. A few of my pals have them blued and that works well, also.

Good shootin'. -Al

 

[Erik Cortina]

My die used to get rusty, until one day I threw it in the stainless tumbling media for a while to get rid of the rust, and it never got rusty again. I don't really know why, but it worked!

 

[LRPV]

Good to know different options. I have a Wilson seated for a few calibers but really I can't complain about my Forster ultra seaters. Have both for 6br and they produce the same results. Thanks for the ideas.

 

[AlNyhus]

Not veer too far off topic, but as long as we're talking about Wilson seaters:

-They are an excellent product.
-There can also be a significant amt. of neck dia. difference between the neck of the Wilson seaters and the necks of the cases we're seating bullets in. That's no fault of Wilson...they have to accomodate every possible scenario of cases that may get used in these seaters.
-The avg. difference I've found seems to be in the .005-.006 range. Depending on neck tension and/neck wall thickness/bullet diameter, this can be the cause of some hard to find runout.
-A good way to check this is to cut a thin strip of Scotch tape the width of the neck and wrap it carefully around the
neck..don't overlap the edges. Most clear tapes have a thickness of about .003, so the case neck will now be well supported during seating.
-Seat a bullet, check the concentricity and if it's better....you'll know where the issue is.
-If you're working with a 'no turn' or 'minimal turn' neck, just size a case (w/o sizing the neck), polish the neck with some 0000 steel wool, mark the neck with some Dykem or black Magic Marker, gently tap the case into the die, (seating stem removed, if only obviously :) tap it back out and measure the neck dia. with a quality .0001 micrometer (not some cheese-ball $2.95 plastic caliper). Now you know exactly how big the neck area of the seater is.

It's about a 10 minute deal to have the chamber reamer run in a bit deeper and face off the back of the die a similar amount. Wilson is very accomodating and they may be able to provide this service as well.

The 'R' and 'F' sliding seater stems are just as sloppy...if not worse. You can buy replacement sleeves from them in a smaller caliber and use your reamer for a good fit, as well.

My view from the cheap seats........ -Al

 

[ReedG]

Teacher: Not sure if you are inquiring about a custom rifle or factory rifle. There is some excellent advice in the answers to your questions. I am going to offer a couple of thoughts that may not be in line with all of them, because I think the methods differ with factory chambers versus match chambers.

In modern competitive shooting, with custom barrels and specific dimension reamers, full-length (FL) sizing is the best way to get/maintain consistency. In these chambers, variations of .001" are very important. For this type of handloading, custom dies are pretty much a necessity, tailored to the exact dimension of cases fired in the chamber to set back the shoulder minimally, resize the base (expansion ring) minimally, and most of these dies use a bushing to resize the neck to get/maintain a certain amount of neck tension or clearance with a given neck thickness.

In my opinion, almost none of this matters when loading for a factory chamber with off-the-shelf factory dies and brass that has never been "prepped". I have had .308s and .223s that showed expansion in the .012-.015" at the base of the brass. Again, in my opinion, FL sizing this brass every firing will destroy the brass in just a couple of cycles. In these chambers, I neck size only, preferably with Lee Collet neck sizing dies. If FL sizing ever becomes necessary, I set the die to just push the shoulder back about .002" and only if bolt closing becomes a problem. I have brass from a factory .223 chamber that has been reloaded 12 times that has never been FL sized.

What most of us spend hours doing to our brass and sizing cases is pretty much wasted in a factory chamber.

 

[wisconsinteacher]

I am ordering a Criterion barrel from Northland Shooters Supply. I need to call him about the specs of the chamber because I don't know if he cuts them per order of if they come to him cut.

 

[ReedG]

I'm sure Jim will take good care of you. I don't know if he cuts his own chambers or not, but let him know you are looking for a match chamber and you should be good to go. When you get the barrel installed, send a couple of fired cases to Harrell's Precision (http://harrellsprec.com/index.php?crn=207&rn=384&action=show_detail) -- if a caliber they support -- or another of the custom die makers and get an FL sizing die to fit your chamber. Harrell's price is around $75 and uses neck bushings by Wilson or Redding and well worth the money. Enjoy ...