My reloading has been compromised

[DiRTY DOG]

It seems all of the CM problems on the internet are about the original old CM 1500 which has been out more than 16 years. I had one, it was pretty good. I sold it to upgrade.

The newer CM Supreme is much better, and and been out for several years. I don't recall reading any issues with it. Every now and then my Supreme overcharges by 0.1 or 0.2gr several loads in a row. Rubbing down with a dryer sheet, using the plastic wind barrier, and recalibrating fixes it. I normally get single digit and low teen SD/ES numbers for 5/10 shot groups. I'm an accuracy hobbyist and I dabble in LR shooting, I'm not a benchrest shooter.

 

[JFrank]

Isn’t the chargemaster rated at plus or minus 1/10 grain accuracy ?
Meaning it could be a little more than 6 kernels or little less.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I think the +/- 1/10 grain is a S.D specification, not E.S.

 

[foxguy]

I've been reading this thread.

All very good comments.

My Thoughts, I use a CM. I power it up 30-45 minutes before I intend to use it. After it's warmed up, I calibrate it. (I make sure there are not any wind currents around it when dropping charges Including air-conditioning or Heat from Vents). I will drop the charge and then re-weigh it on a second scale to verify charge, if the second scale doesn't agree with the CM, I investigate. I have check weights and use them. I want my powder charge drops to be within +- .02 of my target weight (I'm shooting f-Class 600 yards). Oh, The Charge Master get's me close, I use the 2nd Digital Scale to insure the +- .02 drop weight.

 

[ebb]

From what I can tell at this point is after warmup and calibration according to the manual, i start throwing. The first 3 or 4 come out dead on and then I get some dead on and some under. But here is the weird part, it won't read on the screen "Under" and allow me to fix it, It will give the weight it threw (under my target) and the screen will slowly count up till it gets to the weight I programed without adding any more powder. Thus telling me it is a good charge but the actual charge is under. I am going to look at the web and see if there is fix, maybe the ultra slow final throw part needs adjusting???? The 505 is cleaned up and running as it did when I first started reloading on my own unsupervised, I stopped by Harbor freight and got a magnifier and will set the scale and magnifier like is on the home tips page here at AS.

 

[Rocketvapor]

"and the screen will slowly count up till it gets to the weight I programed without adding any more powder"
This is scale creep and NOT a dispensing issue.
Test repeatability of the scale.
Record the same weight applied to the pan for about 30 times.
Tell us High and Low. Calculate Mean and S.D.

 

[Kracken McGraw]

From what I can tell at this point is after warmup and calibration according to the manual, i start throwing. The first 3 or 4 come out dead on and then I get some dead on and some under. But here is the weird part, it won't read on the screen "Under" and allow me to fix it, It will give the weight it threw (under my target) and the screen will slowly count up till it gets to the weight I programed without adding any more powder. Thus telling me it is a good charge but the actual charge is under. I am going to look at the web and see if there is fix, maybe the ultra slow final throw part needs adjusting???? The 505 is cleaned up and running as it did when I first started reloading on my own unsupervised, I stopped by Harbor freight and got a magnifier and will set the scale and magnifier like is on the home tips page here at AS.

I will have to look at the magnifier tip. I was curious if I could set one up to see my trickler magnified.

 

[foxguy]

From what I can tell at this point is after warmup and calibration according to the manual, i start throwing. The first 3 or 4 come out dead on and then I get some dead on and some under. But here is the weird part, it won't read on the screen "Under" and allow me to fix it, It will give the weight it threw (under my target) and the screen will slowly count up till it gets to the weight I programed without adding any more powder. Thus telling me it is a good charge but the actual charge is under. I am going to look at the web and see if there is fix, maybe the ultra slow final throw part needs adjusting???? The 505 is cleaned up and running as it did when I first started reloading on my own unsupervised, I stopped by Harbor freight and got a magnifier and will set the scale and magnifier like is on the home tips page here at AS.

Weird,

At this point I would place my empty powder pan on the scale to insure it reads "0". And, watch it for up to a minute to insure it is stable.

I have read florescent lighting can mess with the Charge Master 1500. ??
Other power influences ??
Also, I have read that Cell Phones can also mess with the Charge Master.

I do like the chargemaster, I hope you can sort out the issue you are having.

 

[Rocketvapor]

I have a Lyman 500/1000.
I can SEE at least 0.1gr
Here is the scale set to the middle weight penny, then the light and heavy one.


OK, time to put it up and save it for SHTF.
Rechecked the 3 pennies and got 115.795gr again.
Guess I went a little light

 

[Kracken McGraw]

I have a Lyman 500/1000.
I can SEE at least 0.1gr
Here is the scale set to the middle weight penny, then the light and heavy one.
View attachment 1569946

OK, time to put it up and save it for SHTF

Thank you. I have that scale, now to go way some coins on my fx120i.

 

[wedgy]

I owned and used a Chargemaster and used a check weight. I then bought an AD FX 120i scale and started checking every weight thrown by the Chargemaster on the 120i and it was enlightening.

The Chargemaster does not throw charges with a high degree of accuracy. If the CM was set to 44.5, then 10 charges that all show 44.5 on the CM could be off by as much as +/- 0.5 grains when weighed on the 120i.

The scale in the CM is not very accurate. It will state that the target weight has been reached but the actual weight of the thrown charge can be different from the target weight.

In many cases the difference is small enough to where it does not matter, but if preciseness is desired, the CM does not do the best of jobs

This is exactly my experience with the CM and FX120

 

[JerkyFreak]

I have a Lyman 500/1000.
I can SEE at least 0.1gr
Here is the scale set to the middle weight penny, then the light and heavy one.
View attachment 1569994

OK, time to put it up and save it for SHTF.
Rechecked the 3 pennies and got 115.795gr again.
Guess I went a little light

That is a really small movement for 0.1 grain. Get hold of a Lee balance and do the same experiment.

 

[M-61]

FYI I’ve also read you’re also supposed to let the scales warm up for 15 minutes before calibrating.

Where did you read this?

 

[Homerange]

Where did you read this?

In Precautions:
Allow scale to stabilize for 20-30 minutes prior to use.

https://www.rcbs.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-RCBSSharedLibrary/default/dwfec6d923/productPdfFiles/rcbsPdf/98923_ChargeMaster1500_InstMan_SN-A16220967-A16221186.pdf

 

[M-61]

In Precautions:
Allow scale to stabilize for 20-30 minutes prior to use.

https://www.rcbs.com/on/demandware.static/-/Library-Sites-RCBSSharedLibrary/default/dwfec6d923/productPdfFiles/rcbsPdf/98923_ChargeMaster1500_InstMan_SN-A16220967-A16221186.pdf

When I called RCBS a few years ago they said only when there is a change in temp as the preceding sentence says.
I’m not changing temps or location so I just plug in, calibrate and go.
Thanks for the answer.

 

[Rocketvapor]

My Lyman Gen 5, with bad seals , has a 3 minute built in warm up (which can be bypassed). Since the electronics in the scale dissipate some internal heat temperature will rise inside. The digital measuring circuitry likely has a LOW temperature coefficient but the load cell isn't as well compensated, which will have the most impact on ZERO.

When performing a "Calibration" you want the best, stable condition. This includes a stable zero. Mess up the calibration, zero for your first charge or as needed and cal could be off. I power on, wait the 3 minutes (at least) and CHECK the 50 gram cal weight (771.6 grains). If it reads OK, I don't re-calibrate. It did read 771.3 a couple months ago so I did a re-calibration. If I set it back on the bench after dumping powder I Check again. Level WILL impact calibration.
I then check 2 or 3 grams.
OR, 3 pennies

The scale accuracy is better than the dispenser repeatability.



I've pretty much decided that the 3 pennies together weight 115.795.
(+/- 0.01 grain, estimated)
They each were worked to a count of target weight (0.005grains). Getting the combination to one count low is pretty darn close. I could set up the 182A and measure closer, but not worth the effort.

The last time I re-calibrated the A&D EJ-54D2 was when I took it into the kitchen to sort primers (on battery power), and again when I brought it back to the bench.
You can select calibration point in the menu. I found linearity was no more than a count from one to 10 grams when cal point was 10 grams.

 

[Rocketvapor]

@JerkyFreak
"That is a really small movement for 0.1 grain. Get hold of a Lee balance and do the same experiment."
This scale has been packed away for a while. I took it out of the box, flushed the agates, wiped it down took photos, and packed it back up.

I don't plan on using a beam scale before the end times

Try this with your Lee scale:
Weight a single penny.
Now, change scale up 0.1 grain, then down 0.1 grain.
Photo pointer.
This will check sensitivity. If you happen to KNOW the weight of the penny, also checks accuracy.

 

[ebb]

I wanted to give and update. Scale got sent to S Parker today, and yes I cleaned it up Scott! Took the Charge master and turned it over and some powder came out from under the platen, actually not as much as I would have guessed. Checked the CM for level and it was out a mile, looked at the bench and thought it might be out of level but it was very close. I know the old crab scratcher the built it and he doesn't like building junk so I thought he might not be the culprit. The front screws on the CM were as tight as i could get them and the 2 in the back were almost to come out of the holes. But it is level now and I will check to see if it weighs accurately tonight. Thanks for all the help and encouragement for all of you guys.

 

[divingin]

I fell deep in the rabbit hole and bought a fancy digital electronic scale. It really looks great taking up space on the shelf above my bench in my reloading room. The fancy digital electronic scales are to inconsistent for me. I`ve tried a couple different higher end brands. Went back to my ole Redding Bench Rest powder measurer, Ohaus 10-10 beam, my ole Redding powder trickler and never looked back at techy electronic scales again.

"Fancy scales" encompasses a fairly wide range of products. The main difference in what we (as reloaders) look for in regards to precision and consistency is that we need both: we're looking for better than .1 grain accuracy over a fairly long timeframe and many iterations of measurement. Quite a few scales will measure accurately for one or two cycles, but will drift over time. Many will be stable but not be particularly precise. Many also won't do either.

The strain gauge scales (which include the sub-$100, get it from your drug dealer type pocket scales, up to some mid-range scientific balances) can be precise enough, but tend to drift (both in zero and calibration.) What you want for reloading (if you can and/or are willing to afford it) is a magnetic force restoration scale. A lot less drift, and much more stable with regards to measurements made over longer runs. Generally higher priced than strain gauge units.

Having multiple units (weighing each charge on multiple scales) will clue you in to an issue much faster than trying to see a trend while using a single scale. They don't both/all have to be high end; a fairly accurate one and a cheapie will do the same problem indication - you're just looking for discrepancies.

You can get by quite well with a strain gauge unit; you just have to learn what it's idiosyncrasies are, and learn how to work with them (My Adam/Highlander, for instance, required resetting zero every few measurements, and benefitted greatly from weighing things twice.) But it's a lot easier and more straightforward with a consistently good-behaving unit.

 

[ebb]

I think i finally have a handle on my scales. Got my scale back from Scott and had something to actually compare to that was known accurate Just say Moe sent me some instructions on how to trouble shoot my chargemaster and I read them and found my exact problem on the first page. So I cleaned it very well blew it out and wiped inside and out plus check weights, platen and pan with dryer sheets. Followed the warm up procedure and began to check the throws on a Weightman scale I got at Amazon, and the RCBS 5-10 scale i got back a few days ago. The chargemaster works and is very close to what it claims it is throwing (+or- .01 grains and it has not missed over or under yet. So I think I will be back using it for bulk and factory rifles that have limited accuracy. And use the tuned up RCBS beam scale for guns that have some potential for small groups. The static electricity thing seemed too simple but that is exactly what it was. I think it probably needs a wipe down with dryer sheets at least once per month. A friend had added a ground wire to his some yerars back and I may be doing that soon. Thanks for all the advice and help!!!