My new 6.5x47 Borden
- Thread starter Evan
- Start date
You can't see it clearly in the picture, but the nose cone shape is very different. The 144 is wider further out. They do have very similar boattails and bearing surfaces though.
Also wanted to add that I studied my log and the target from Wednesday. Row 1, column 2 and column 6 (far right) are both seated 0.002 out. Row 2, column 4 is also seated 0.002 out. These are 40.2, 40.4, and 40.6 respectively. Row 3 and column 3 would have been the next 0.002 out, but wind wasn't cooperating with me at that point, as seen by the increasingly larger group sizes.
I think in this rifle, the 147ELD prefers to be 0.002" out of the lands.
I think in this rifle, the 147ELD prefers to be 0.002" out of the lands.
Top is a 140 Hybrid, loaded 0.010" out of the lands
Middle is a 144 Hybrid, loaded 0.010" out of the lands
Bottom is a 153.5 Hybrid, loaded 0.010" out of the lands
All in my 0.166" freebore chamber. If someone was having difficulty with getting to magazine length with the heavy bullets, I'd recommend trying the 144. It seems to be optimized to get shorter OAL relative to the lands compared to the other heavy bullets.
Some days the weather app says 3mph, so you get up at 4 am, drive 75 miles to your favorite spot, only to find 20mph wind with gusting up to 30. It's hard to turn around and give up with so much effort already expended to shoot and so I set a target at 100 yards, braced it with my wind flags (rebar with surveyors tape), and shot this with 2 MOA ( 
) of wind dialed:
5-shot groups are the 147ELD.
The far left 3 shot groups are 140 Hybrids, going 2850.
The 144 Hybrid going 2830fps is Row 2, column 1 (touch lands) and Row 3, column 2 (0.005" out) and column 3 (0.010" out).
The 153.5 Hybrid rocking along at 2800fps is the top row, column 1 (touching the lands) and 3 (0.005 out), and row 3, column 1 is loaded 0.010" out of the lands:
That's outstanding, if I do say so myself given the incredible wind!
All in all, I'm excited and optimistic. I will load up and test around that 0.010" out mark this weekend, hopefully at distance, and see if it repeats cause that's awesome. I will warn everyone that 2800fps is max with RL-16. Bolt lift is getting stiff and it's going to trash the brass quickly. I'm going to back down my charges from here and see where I find a node. Even 2750fps from the 153.5 would be impressive ballistically - coming real close to the 284.
) of wind dialed:5-shot groups are the 147ELD.
The far left 3 shot groups are 140 Hybrids, going 2850.
The 144 Hybrid going 2830fps is Row 2, column 1 (touch lands) and Row 3, column 2 (0.005" out) and column 3 (0.010" out).
The 153.5 Hybrid rocking along at 2800fps is the top row, column 1 (touching the lands) and 3 (0.005 out), and row 3, column 1 is loaded 0.010" out of the lands:
That's outstanding, if I do say so myself given the incredible wind!
All in all, I'm excited and optimistic. I will load up and test around that 0.010" out mark this weekend, hopefully at distance, and see if it repeats cause that's awesome. I will warn everyone that 2800fps is max with RL-16. Bolt lift is getting stiff and it's going to trash the brass quickly. I'm going to back down my charges from here and see where I find a node. Even 2750fps from the 153.5 would be impressive ballistically - coming real close to the 284.
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Rifle/stock is a beauty. Keep the updates coming, looks promising!
Sandstorm
Gold $$ Contributor
I shot some 144 Bergers as well with real nice results @ 500yds ...They shot
as well as the 140 BT Long range thats been my go to for mid range Matches.
199-9x last time out....my wind calls suck.....and I shoot too fast.
Yea nice rifle you got there my friend...and its starting to show on paper.
as well as the 140 BT Long range thats been my go to for mid range Matches.
199-9x last time out....my wind calls suck.....and I shoot too fast.
Yea nice rifle you got there my friend...and its starting to show on paper.
I have done extensive tests with the 147 ELD and 144 Berger in my 29" 6.5x47 Kreiger/Bat F-class rifle.
I tested several (9) powders for velocity, then seating depth, then primers.
Attached is a 144 Berger primer test, shot at 600 yards.
1st target 20 shots for score using BR4 primers.
2nd target 20 shots for score using #450 Primers.
All else is same, except for the wind. Shot back to back, had a wind flag at 300, apparently I ignored it a few times! This was shot during a 10 mph full value cross wind.
This is an AR service rifle target which is 2X ring size of a normal F-Open MR-1 mid range target. Any shot outside the 6" diameter X ring would be a 9 score (one point penalty) in F-Open.
Seems like too much vertical (~5" 1MOA) for my liking, could be better...the right target is with CCI #450 and the left with BR4.
If the #450 hadn't dropped one shot low on the right target, I would feel pretty good about it, I needed a little more elevation on that string. Excluding the one low shot, the vertical is 4.40", which is workable.
Seems like the BR4 primer launched two shots high.
Go figure!
I tested several (9) powders for velocity, then seating depth, then primers.
Attached is a 144 Berger primer test, shot at 600 yards.
1st target 20 shots for score using BR4 primers.
2nd target 20 shots for score using #450 Primers.
All else is same, except for the wind. Shot back to back, had a wind flag at 300, apparently I ignored it a few times! This was shot during a 10 mph full value cross wind.
This is an AR service rifle target which is 2X ring size of a normal F-Open MR-1 mid range target. Any shot outside the 6" diameter X ring would be a 9 score (one point penalty) in F-Open.
Seems like too much vertical (~5" 1MOA) for my liking, could be better...the right target is with CCI #450 and the left with BR4.
If the #450 hadn't dropped one shot low on the right target, I would feel pretty good about it, I needed a little more elevation on that string. Excluding the one low shot, the vertical is 4.40", which is workable.
Seems like the BR4 primer launched two shots high.
Go figure!
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Hi Evan,
Not sorting primers, cases or bullets.
Might need to sort cases however, that may explain dropped or high shots. I keep telling myself to trash cases that shoot high or low immediately upon extraction! Hard to do tho..
I did not find any consistency with any of my 147 ELD groups. One day .25 moa, the next .75 moa. No time to sort them.
Berger 144s much better.
In my 6.5x47 barrel and relative short freebore, the best powders were: RL-17, N550, Stabal6.5 and H414.
Worst powders were: RL-16, IMR4350, H4350, IMR4451, Superformance.
Your results may be different. I wont have heavy bolt lift, I stop there - to prevent galled lugs. My freebore prevents huge charge weights - so my coal with 144s is around 2.850”.
Not sorting primers, cases or bullets.
Might need to sort cases however, that may explain dropped or high shots. I keep telling myself to trash cases that shoot high or low immediately upon extraction! Hard to do tho..
I did not find any consistency with any of my 147 ELD groups. One day .25 moa, the next .75 moa. No time to sort them.
Berger 144s much better.
In my 6.5x47 barrel and relative short freebore, the best powders were: RL-17, N550, Stabal6.5 and H414.
Worst powders were: RL-16, IMR4350, H4350, IMR4451, Superformance.
Your results may be different. I wont have heavy bolt lift, I stop there - to prevent galled lugs. My freebore prevents huge charge weights - so my coal with 144s is around 2.850”.
I found sorting primers to help, but it's a small effect and hard to distinguish - just felt like less fliers happened when I started sorting and caught the handful of primers in each box that were way out. Like with CCI450, most all weigh from 3.68 up to 3.74gns, but you get a couple that go all the way to up to 3.82 and as low as 3.60gns. Keeping those outliers out of record groups, if nothing else, feels better to me; especially since I can't say that it was definitively primer sorting and not an increase in shooting skill that improved my overall performance.
I've got a good stock of RL-17 and plan to try it out if RL-16 lets me down. I may also try a faster powder too. I've got a good stock of IMR-4320, 4064, Shooter's World Precision, and Long Rifle. I'll definitely venture there if I step down to 130 class bullets.
I should also mention, I used Quickload to make all my initial powder selections for the heavy bullets in the 6.5x47 case, since little data exists in the loading manuals. I ran QL simulations till I was sick of it.
I also did not compress loads over 103-4%.
So there are lots of possibilities still out there.
I also did not compress loads over 103-4%.
So there are lots of possibilities still out there.
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My RL-16 load is so compressed I was about ready to abandon it regardless of results. 8" drop tube and a slow pour, then seating the bullets in multiple stages to get to the final depth. It's just a bit too much work. I was honestly relieved when my top load with the 153.5 had heavy bolt lift so that I could back it down!
Coming down even 0.2gns makes a huge difference in how hard I have to work.330 yards today. Mid-50s and high humidity at 6am. Wind was very mild and progressively grew into a 8mph headwind that swung left to right. That said, I think I've got some interesting results:
If we look at this target and assign rows numbers 1 through 6, and the columns letters A through F, we can talk about specific targets and groups. So the first group at the top left of the target would be 2A, for example.
The 153.5 Hybrid
I loaded 153.5 Hybrids 0.010" out of the lands, and laddered down from 40.5 to 40.0gns of RL16 in 3 shot groups: 40.4gns is 5A, 40.3gns is 5B, 40.2gns is 5C, 40.1gns is 4D, 40.0gns is 5D.
If we look at the distance from the center of the group to the center of the dot on each target, it looks to me like 40.4 and 40.3 are somewhat flat and then it rapidly drops and stays stable for maybe 40.2 through 40.0. I don't necessarily think these are two nodes, but it is a pretty stark and noticeable shift in POI.
3C is the 153.5 loaded 0.015" out of the lands and 3D is loaded 0.020" out of the lands, both at 40.0gns. We can see the POI is consistent and low, just like with 5D, the other 40.0gn load at 0.010" out of the lands. 5D, in this 3 target group, looks REALLY good with just one shot out of a tight little dot. 3C and 3D are both bigger in shape but if I explored even further out of the lands, I imagine that it would come back in to a tight group again somewhere maybe around 0.025" out of the lands. Given how compressed these loads are, I will do some fine tuning around 0.010" out of the lands and see how it goes. At this point, I will also use 5 shots instead of 3.
Many of these groups hovered right around 0.75-1.00 inch, with a few of them threatening to be much smaller without one of the three shots ruining a good thing.
The 144 Hybrid
I loaded the 144 Hybrids 0.010" out of the lands, and laddered from 40.5 down to 40gns of RL16 in 3 shot groups. 40.5gns is 4C, 40.4gns is 3A, 40.3gns is 2A, 40.2gns is 2B, 40.1gns is 2C, and 40.0gns is a 5 shot group on 2F.
The POI on these groups seems stable all the way until I get to the 5-shot 40.0gn group at 2F. A quick note is that wind was getting challenging at this point and I think that is why groups got bigger and uglier at 1.25 to 2.5 inches.
Seating depth was tested at 40.5gns of RL16, again going 0.010" out (4C), 0.015" out(3F), 0.020" out (3E), and then also 0.025" out (3B). This really is a wash. Nothing stands out to me here. Maybe 0.025" out of the lands (3B) looks better than the rest, but it's just not showing the same promise 153.5 is.
Where to next?
Ultimately, I've got a nagging feeling that RL-16 isn't the powder. It seems to hold some promise with the 153.5, but not with the 147ELD or the 144 Hybrid. I may in the near future start venturing into other powders: RL-17, IMR-4350, SW Long Rifle. See if one of these suddenly tightens it all up. I've got a couple matches next weekend at CRC, so I'll report how the 153.5 does at 1000 yards after that.
If we look at this target and assign rows numbers 1 through 6, and the columns letters A through F, we can talk about specific targets and groups. So the first group at the top left of the target would be 2A, for example.
The 153.5 Hybrid
I loaded 153.5 Hybrids 0.010" out of the lands, and laddered down from 40.5 to 40.0gns of RL16 in 3 shot groups: 40.4gns is 5A, 40.3gns is 5B, 40.2gns is 5C, 40.1gns is 4D, 40.0gns is 5D.
If we look at the distance from the center of the group to the center of the dot on each target, it looks to me like 40.4 and 40.3 are somewhat flat and then it rapidly drops and stays stable for maybe 40.2 through 40.0. I don't necessarily think these are two nodes, but it is a pretty stark and noticeable shift in POI.
3C is the 153.5 loaded 0.015" out of the lands and 3D is loaded 0.020" out of the lands, both at 40.0gns. We can see the POI is consistent and low, just like with 5D, the other 40.0gn load at 0.010" out of the lands. 5D, in this 3 target group, looks REALLY good with just one shot out of a tight little dot. 3C and 3D are both bigger in shape but if I explored even further out of the lands, I imagine that it would come back in to a tight group again somewhere maybe around 0.025" out of the lands. Given how compressed these loads are, I will do some fine tuning around 0.010" out of the lands and see how it goes. At this point, I will also use 5 shots instead of 3.
Many of these groups hovered right around 0.75-1.00 inch, with a few of them threatening to be much smaller without one of the three shots ruining a good thing.
The 144 Hybrid
I loaded the 144 Hybrids 0.010" out of the lands, and laddered from 40.5 down to 40gns of RL16 in 3 shot groups. 40.5gns is 4C, 40.4gns is 3A, 40.3gns is 2A, 40.2gns is 2B, 40.1gns is 2C, and 40.0gns is a 5 shot group on 2F.
The POI on these groups seems stable all the way until I get to the 5-shot 40.0gn group at 2F. A quick note is that wind was getting challenging at this point and I think that is why groups got bigger and uglier at 1.25 to 2.5 inches.
Seating depth was tested at 40.5gns of RL16, again going 0.010" out (4C), 0.015" out(3F), 0.020" out (3E), and then also 0.025" out (3B). This really is a wash. Nothing stands out to me here. Maybe 0.025" out of the lands (3B) looks better than the rest, but it's just not showing the same promise 153.5 is.
Where to next?
Ultimately, I've got a nagging feeling that RL-16 isn't the powder. It seems to hold some promise with the 153.5, but not with the 147ELD or the 144 Hybrid. I may in the near future start venturing into other powders: RL-17, IMR-4350, SW Long Rifle. See if one of these suddenly tightens it all up. I've got a couple matches next weekend at CRC, so I'll report how the 153.5 does at 1000 yards after that.
Sandstorm
Gold $$ Contributor
I have found RL16 to be accurate enough in 6.5x47, however you run out of case capacity with 16
and then I went to 17 and the speed really came up.
I didnt find the accuracy however to be as good..probly the 139gr scenar was the culprit...whatever...
Jumped on Varget and also switched to flippin Bergers and never looked back....its just my experience.. ( 140gr BT )
With a 28 inch Krieger 1.25 straight pipe....but this combe didnt work at all in my Bartlein barrel...go figure...Its all vudoo..magic dust
I sure cant pin it down as all my process is always the same no matter what im loading and in what barrel.
You will find your magic combo as well no doubt.
and then I went to 17 and the speed really came up.
I didnt find the accuracy however to be as good..probly the 139gr scenar was the culprit...whatever...
Jumped on Varget and also switched to flippin Bergers and never looked back....its just my experience.. ( 140gr BT )
With a 28 inch Krieger 1.25 straight pipe....but this combe didnt work at all in my Bartlein barrel...go figure...Its all vudoo..magic dust
I sure cant pin it down as all my process is always the same no matter what im loading and in what barrel.
You will find your magic combo as well no doubt.
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