My First F-TR Target Rifle Build ( UPDATED )

[M14AMU]

Re: My First Target Rifle Build

I want to apologize to those guys that I rubbed your feathers the wrong way.
NOT REALLY If you would just READ the post, I EXPLAINED Everything. I said muzzle brakes aren't allowed in F/TR Class but since I just PUNCH PAPER a lot that I like it because it kicks like a 223. I could remove the brake if I get serious at competing in F class. And if I did make a sleeve to go over the brake it would completely cover the brake and not let any gasses out, it would not turn it into a supressor. Browing make a brake that was adjustable and you could turn it so it was completely closed, it wasn't concidered a supressor. And pertaining to my truck axle as a barrel, most guys that I know that shoot want their barrel as stiff as possible so heat doesn't change POI. My barrel if you READ the first post is 1.250 Dia at the action as are all Remington barrels, it tapers to 1.100 at the muzzle. My barrel is 27 in long and 2 in of that is the brake. That is why it looks fatter.
I think that the gentleman that runs the F class shoot is bringing more people into the sport. I was just working up some loads one day when he asked me if I had ever shot F class. I didn't know what F class was and he explained it. Then said just come and shoot and have some fun. I came there on the day of the match and was nervous anyway and looking at all the top notch equipment, A lot of rifles made by Victor Bruno, I was even more nervous. I never met a friendlier bunch of guys that were willing to give help and advice, and never got criticized because I had a factory rifle with a brake on it. They just said you are a new guy and come on and we will show you what to do. They just put me down at the end and put a stool between me and he next guy. I only shot a 552 but I had a real good time. Some of them use my bipods now. ;D
Now I have a rifle ( without the brake of course ) that can compete with those guys. Isn't this what we want is to bring more people into the sport?
If Mike wouldn't of asked me to try F class I would just be punching paper, not knowing the fun of the competition that I would be missing. It is also making me a better shooter.
Have a good day
Tarey

GNERGY

No sir...I don't see where an apology is due anyone! I have a muzzle break on the rifle below and it's designed such that I can unscrew it and screw on a 'muzzle cap'. It works quite well and I've seen many rifles with 'breaks' designed this way. Either way, with or without....it shoots very tight groups from a long ways back!!


Savage by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

 

[Nomad47]

Re: My First Target Rifle Build

Hey Tarey. I'm in complete agreement with you. I would love to have a F Class rifle and maybe someday I will own one. But I will not compete in F Class - for two reasons. 1. I prefer to shoot steel at up to and including 1000 yards. 2. My 66 year old back and neck just don't get along with the prone position.
I'm currently down to two rifles/four barrels (my choice, as I live in a motorhome). And all four barrels have removable brakes. I want the brakes so I can see WHERE I missed the target on those rare occasions when I miss.

 

[DOGCAPPER]

Re: My First Target Rifle Build

GNERGY built what he wanted with the material at hand...He shoots where he is welcome and shoots for fun...Get off his back with the rule thing..LT

 

[The Viper]

Re: My First Target Rifle Build

Gnergy,

What an amazing piece of craftsmanship!!!! The Bi Pod is second to none and the lines on your forend are simply flawless. The barrel contouring on the built in muzzle brake are a work of art. Your choice of changing to HSS during the contouring was the right choice, as you found out. Give me a call when you get a chance. 1-269-521-3671 I have some HSS indexable inserts that will make your next contouring job easier. No money involved just a gesture from one shooter to another.

With Best Regards,

Bob Pastor "The Viper"

 

[GNERGY]

UPDATE ( I like it when somebody tells me I CAN'T do something ;D )
I decided to make a stainless sleeve to cover the muzzle brake and see if it was even feasable to keep the gas from coming out and still be accurate. I also didn't want to put something on there that would end up throwing shrappnel every where. I bored the sleeve to have .007 clearance over barrel dia. so I could use a piece of brass shin around the barrel to get a tighter seal. I have 2 small set screws on the bottom to hold it in place.
And off to the range.

That's the sleeve during the testing phase. As far as I could tell accuracy wasn't affected,and noise was less because it wasn't escaping on the sides and my shooting buddies liked not getting belted with the blast.
I asked a couple of the guys who shoot F class where I shoot and they didn't see any problem with it, said Good Idea.
So I painted it to match the barrel and sent my $ in to shoot at the Berger SW Long Range Nationals in the 600yrd. mid range match.

On tuesday Feb. 5th there was a shooting clinic and test session at Ben Avery the day before the 600 yrd. match. I thought that would be a good idea to get sighted in at 600 yrds. because the longest I have shot the 308 was 500 meters ( 560 yrds. at my home range ).
Brian Litz gave a real good seminar about Ballistics and all about reloading and answered everybodys questions, the same ones we post on here about everything from pointing bullets to neck tension to distance to lands to weighing everything down to a mosquitos poop.
Then there was a test session to shoot at a 1000 WHAT!!!! ??? I didn't plan on shooting that far, 600 yes. I an just shooting the Berger 168 Hybrid at 2750 fps. I asked Brian and he thought it would stay stable that far, then he smiled and said let him know how it shot. I had a fellow shooter calculate my drop and told me I would need 23.5 MOA adjustmentfrom the 500 yrd. zero that I was sightened in at. I dialed in 22.5 and my first shot was about 10 inches high and 20 inches to the right. I got sighted in and shot 20 shots for the practice ( record ) and shot a 170. Some of the wind gusts would move my bullet all the way to the right to just inside the 7 ring. I liked shooting that far, I think I'm hooked ( I bought some Berger 185 gr. Hybrids to try it again ).
This is where I shot from at 1000, My friends were too busy BSin with everybody to take a picture on me shooting.

Here is my friend Rocky, he is using one of my bipods.

More to come about wednesdays 600 yrd match in next post.
Tarey

 

[GNERGY]

On wednesday everybody met at the 600 yrd firing line. I would say there was over 200 shooters. There were some shooters from Ireland, Canada, Great Brittian, and South Africa.

I was pretty nervous getting ready to compete against all these shooters and the top notch equipment that was being set up to put everybody to the test. Danny Biggs and Alton Britt shot with me at the same target. They were both F-Open shooters, And I was glad cause I scored or pulled their targets and they didn't miss the 10 ring. Danny's first string was 150-13X
I came down 15 MOA from my 1000yrd setting. Got settled in and shot about 6 or 7 sighters to try to get comfortable and then went to shoot my 15 for record. I shot a 144-3X and was in 5th place in the Master class after the first relay. Rocky came over to tell me he shot a 148, with a big smile on his face, ;D I told him the next time he has any questions on reloading to look them up on the internet. The next relay I shot a 143-3X and I was in 5th place again. In my last relay I wanted to shoot better and made sure my sighters were right on, then the wind came up a little and I shot 5 9's in a row, I just wanted to push that gun of the edge of the little embankment and go sit in a chair and watch everybody shoot. I ended up with a 140-2X and after it was all over I was down in 8th place. I still had a lot of fun and I guess I just have to practice more and see if I can refine my load for the next time. I didn't have anybody ask any questions about my rifle and I showed it to a lot of the big names from other states, and they said as long as the rifle doesn't let any blast out to bother the other competetors it would be welcome at their matches. So I guess you can cover your muzzle brake and be legal at a National Match.
Here are a couple pics of some of the good looking equipment at the match.

I guess I have to teach my friend to use my camera so I can post more pics, Gary gets around.
Tarey

 

[Nomad47]

That is just plain awesome, Tarey. To be able to build the gun and bipod, then come up with a way to cancel the effect of the brake. And then compete in a NATIONAL competition....

 

[Nomad47]

Ryanjay11, I don't see how it can be considered in any way to be a suppressor. There are no baffles in it. And the noise it makes is the same as any rifle with nothing hanging on the muzzle end.
GNERGY also showed it to several well known competitors and they didn't see anything illegal about it.

 

[Nomad47]

First. What is in that video is totally different.
Second. If it is a suppressor, why hasn't the noise level been reduced?
Third. If it is illegal, why didn't someone that has been in the sport for years say something?
Fourth. Is this just your opinion? If not, what are your credentials?

 

[GNERGY]

The cover on the muzzle brake doesn't make it quiet, it is still loud, just the gas doesn't go to the sides, that is the main concern in F-TR class rules. It is a sleeve that fits tight and not an expansion chamber, it blocks any gas from escaping except thru the end of the barrel. You don't want to be slowly squezing off a shot when all of a sudden this blast from the guy next to you blows your hat off.
Ryanjay, then point me in the direction that I can find out more about this. I talked to 2 gentlemen from different states that run F class matches and they said that as long as it blocked the gasses from going sideways and upsetting other shooters it defeated the muzzle brake!!! It would be OK to shoot in their matches. Tell me WHY YOU are so sure it is illegal.
Tarey

 

[Nomad47]

I have one other point to make.
Savage sells a model with a muzzle brake that can be turned on and off by twisting a cover. If this was considered a suppressor, then Savage could not sell the rifle to the public.

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ryanjay, let me see if I can explain it better.

Muzzle brakes are not allowed in F-Class. Does this rifle have a muzzle break on it? Yes it does, wether it is covered or not does not matter. It's as simple as that.

P.S. GNERGY, glad you had fun shooting F-Class. I shot on the same target as your friend Rocky on day one.

 

[nosualc]

Tarey, nice rifle and I'm am happy for you in your successful entry into a new and addicting sport!

For competition, the brake is a problem. From the NRA highpower rules (which govern f-class):

3.16.1 Compensators and Muzzle Brakes - The use of compensators or muzzle brakes is prohibited. An extension tube that has been installed on the muzzle of a rifle to extend the sight radius shall not be considered a “muzzle brake.” The extension tube must have an interior diameter of .5 inches or greater and may have 1/4” x 1” slots cut at 12 and 6 o’clock to remove cleaning patches. Threaded holes along the top of this tube for the installation of sight bases will be allowed.
(a) Sound suppressors are not authorized for use in high power competition.

Whether or not what you have is a suppressor would be a matter for law enforcement, but it is pretty clear that what you have is indeed a muzzle brake, and not a extension tube.

The fact that you've put a sleeve over the brake probably mitigates the sound enough to allow you to shoot at a match. This is up to the match director and your neighboring competitors.

However, that brake will certainly disqualify you from winning an authorized or registered match. Even if you sell the match director on it, other competitors would certainly file a protest. Sorry, the rules are pretty clear.

-nosualc

ps - Our local match director (an irascible sort of moderate tact ), has threatened the use of a pipe wrench on occasion.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

What the OP could do to prevent any surprises and avoid confusion is the get a letter from the BATFE attestinng that his contraption is not regarded as any kind of suppressor or brake. With such a letter. there would be no question and he could use his rifle as a perfectly legitimate F-class rifle.

I have no clue how to get such a letter, but I would suspect it involves pictures and examination.

 

[nosualc]

Apologies to the OP, who can and should build his rifle any darn way he wants...

People put brakes on their rifles to mitigate recoil. Mitigating recoil is an advantage. Without this characteristic, nobody would ever use (or invent) a brake. I should think this is not an arguable point.

The downside is that they're "loud". Enough so that it would put your neighboring shooters at a disadvantage. So they're specifically disallowed in NRA high-power competition.

If you put a sleeve on it, it mitigates the "loud" issue, and won't be an impediment to your neighboring shooters. No argument here.

The question is, does the sleeve also defeat the recoil mitigation? 100%? What if the seal isn't perfect? Is a sleeved brake an advantage over somebody who has no brake? I don't know the answer, and without data, neither do any of us.

As a match director (who's under considerable pressure during a match), I think all you can do is literally interpret the rules, and the rules say no brakes.

If I were the match director, I'd say go ahead and shoot; the more the merrier. But your scores are "unofficial".

-nosualc

 

[effendude]

This has been an interesting read into rule interpretations. As the local match director who has been somewhat accurately described parenthetically as "an irascible sort of moderate tact", I welcome all shooters to our local fun matches and leagues where the emphasis is on getting people into the sport. At these matches, pride and who buys the first beer are all that is at stake. I tell people to bring what you got in the safe and have fun. All that I ask is that you tell me you have a brake on your rifle so I can accomodate you with as little disruption to surrounding shooters as possible. The simpletons who repeatedly don't tell me they have a brake are the ones that get the pipe wrench threat! It is a simple courtesy to other shooters.

As far as shooting at an official NRA Approved or Registered match, I honestly think I would have to err on the side of caution and not allow the shooter to shoot a questionable rifle. When you go to the match operations page of the NRA website, there is a large page of instruction warning the match operations people to follow the NRA rules. If you don't, the NRA won't back you up in the event of an accident. As a match director, I have up to 80 competitors to worry about. If someone has equipment that is questionable, when the rules are as clearly written as they are, I am required to follow the published NRA rules. There is no room for personal allowances in my opinion. I don't want the rules to be as unreadable as US tax code. There are plenty of great brake designs that are easily removeable if you want to shoot competitively with the rifle.

Scott

PS: Have pipe wrenches, will travel.....

 

[XTR]

What you've made, whether it actually lowers sound levels or not is a suppressor. It is a muzzle device with baffles. Look at the way suppressors work, all the gasses come out the muzzle in almost all designs, BATF is not a group that is known for being reasonable. You're being hard headed and flirting with federal charges that can have life changing consequences to prove a point. Unscrew the thing and put on a thread protector to shoot F class, shoot the brake on otherwise, and get rid of the cover, even possession of the parts is a felony. (Do you think that posting this on the internet isn't reaching just one ass as hardheaded as you are who might just make a phone call to prove their point? )

 

[Max Power]

I am not your lawyer, but:



The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.


That's not me talking that's 18 U.S.C.A. § 921 (a)(24). So, "whether it actually lowers sound levels or not" is pretty important.

 

[racesnake]

At one time I worked for the BATF and I can guarantee that what you have built would be considered a suppressor. My advice to you is to take the tube you installed over the brake and throw it AWAY and hope that big brother hasn't been looking at this thread!

 

[XTR]

I am not your lawyer, but:



The terms “firearm silencer” and “firearm muffler” mean any device for silencing, muffling, or diminishing the report of a portable firearm, including any combination of parts, designed or redesigned, and intended for use in assembling or fabricating a firearm silencer or firearm muffler, and any part intended only for use in such assembly or fabrication.


That's not me talking that's 18 U.S.C.A. § 921 (a)(24). So, "whether it actually lowers sound levels or not" is pretty important.

Would you like to make a small wager on whether or not it measurably lowers the sound signature 10 feet away at 90 degrees? Think about it, It's a brake w/o the cover, so I'm going to venture a guess that it's a huge reduction in sound signature. Remember the whole point of the argument for/against brakes on the line is the impact on the guys beside you. It is a suppressor.

Would you take the chance that BATF would not bring charges against you, seize your stuff, and even if you manage to win how much would that cost you. Last time I looked any lawyer I'd trust to defend me in Federal court doesn't work for cheap and there's no settlement here to split. It's way cheaper to get a tread protector. By the way if you lose you have a federal firearms conviction, losing ever firearm you ever though about owning is the least of your problems.