Moving On From Savage Bashing...What's So Great About Remington?

[GSPV]

Actually, there are custom actions that copy portions of the Savage action. The Shilen and Bighorn are the ones that I know of. Those actions blend the M700 and Savage designs.

People have been converting Remington bolts to a floating bolt head for years. More recently, we have the "Rem nut" barrels to open the M700s up to the prefit barrel market.

 

[LHSmith]

Actually, there are custom actions that copy portions of the Savage action. The Shilen and Bighorn are the ones that I know of. Those actions blend the M700 and Savage designs.

People have been converting Remington bolts to a floating bolt head for years. More recently, we have the "Rem nut" barrels to open the M700s up to the prefit barrel market.

Which is all a step backwards 8)....next thing they'll be making muzzle loading versions of the M700 and Savage ???

 

[Kodiak99317]

I love my M700 as well so I thought maybe these would help in this thread as well. You can see they have made some changes over time, but they are simple and have the rings of steel to help protect you. That all said, the Savage has also made some head way and changes and they are the second best choice now IMO for a factory rifle, cheapest, and pretty darn accurate as well and they did listen to us shooters when they were asking about stock designs for the new FTR and FOpen rifles they now make. I saw a 6.5x284 in a Savage the other day at a gun store and figured this would make a very good starting entry level rifle for anyone wanting to start FClass shooting. BTW, my main FOpen is a Stolle Kodiak in a Robertson/Speedy in 284 Win but my MR rifle is a sleeved M700 in 6BR and I would have made that into a Dasher but I had all the dies etc for the 6BR from my BR days

 

[BigDMT]

How about this!!

Tell me one company that copy's the savage action or for that matter any other action. None i know!!

If you get it right to start with you don't have to spend years trying to improve it!!!

Enough said!! Rem 700 is the BEST!!!

T 700

Not a Savage fan, but even our precious Remington copies Savage design in their new model 783. Then there is Mossberg and Marlin who also utilize the barrel nut and trigger blade in their rifles. But it's only because it's cost effective for production. Look at the price of any of the rifles I mentioned and you'll find it to be true.

 

[Raythemanroe]

How about this!!

Tell me one company that copy's the savage action or for that matter any other action. None i know!!

If you get it right to start with you don't have to spend years trying to improve it!!!

Enough said!! Rem 700 is the BEST!!!

T 700

Not a Savage fan, but even our precious Remington copies Savage design in their new model 783. Then there is Mossberg and Marlin who also utilize the barrel nut and trigger blade in their rifles. But it's only because it's cost effective for production. Look at the price of any of the rifles I mentioned and you'll find it to be true.

Savage is famous for the trigger blade and barrel nut but these were used before Savage had them..I know even Savage barrows things

 

[BigDMT]

How about this!!

Tell me one company that copy's the savage action or for that matter any other action. None i know!!

If you get it right to start with you don't have to spend years trying to improve it!!!

Enough said!! Rem 700 is the BEST!!!

T 700

Not a Savage fan, but even our precious Remington copies Savage design in their new model 783. Then there is Mossberg and Marlin who also utilize the barrel nut and trigger blade in their rifles. But it's only because it's cost effective for production. Look at the price of any of the rifles I mentioned and you'll find it to be true.

Savage is famous for the trigger blade and barrel nut but these were used before Savage had them..I know even Savage barrows things

interesting. I can't remember seeing them on anything else prior. Who was the first to utilize them?

 

[Raythemanroe]

I had a Competitor brand pistol in .243 win with a Canon breech like Magnum research used years ago but the Competitor came about first. They used The Glock type triggers and the old Grease guns of WW2 were using a nut type barrel to action fit..They were both harvested ideas

 

[BoydAllen]

If you compare the accuracy of off the shelf rifles, and triggers, there is no Remington advantage, but if you experience a catastrophic case failure, the 700 is clearly the winner.

 

[John from MN]

There is no reason to fear an old style 700 trigger that has been inspected and adjusted by someone who has taken the time to learn how they work.

I've had a single accidental discharge from my 700's in many, many thousands of rounds fired. It happened because I adjusted out too much of the pretravel. The rifle went off When I flipped off the safety.

I have examples of them that I've stoned and adjusted pretty darn low and they're 100 percent reliable.

Shot a 1-9/16" 5 shot group at 550 yds yesterday morning with my 6.5 Creedmooor. Pretty decent for shooting off a bipod while laying in the snow during 5 degree weather with a fair breeze. Especially considering it's not a huge pig of a rifle. Remington varmint countour barrel in a Manners T4 with a 6-24 PST.

I don't shoot true BR. I can't imagine myself needing to do anything I can't accomplish with one of my 700's, unless I get the itch to build a rifle in one of the heavy hitting 338's, in which case I'll probably go with a custom action.

 

[teele1]

BTW anybody ever knocked a bolt handle off a Savage?

Just had to do it.

 

[BigDMT]

BTW anybody ever knocked a bolt handle off a Savage?

Just had to do it.

No, but I've had that stupid bolt shroud nut work itself fairly loose. Handle gets kinda sloppy when that happens....as if they aren't sloppy enough to start with.

 

[CSM19Z5M]

I read all the feedback from your question and there are some well thought out and valuable points being made, primarily by those favoring the Remington. While less parts and pieces may be a good thing just like lock-up time, etc., I don't think anyone made a definitive argument. All good points but in the end, there is nothing wrong with a Savage action. I agree with those that say Savage actions are not as "attractive" as the Remington but that doesn't mean the Savage is diminished in any way. Both companies make good rifles that are safe and shoot well. It is like cars, some argue for Fords while others argue for Chevrolets while others argue for Honda's. There are plenty of people in this world who enjoy equal success with both rifles. Variety makes the market and the sport better in the end and encourages innovation.

 

[Rem6br]

I read all the feedback from your question and there are some well thought out and valuable points being made, primarily by those favoring the Remington. While less parts and pieces may be a good thing just like lock-up time, etc., I don't think anyone made a definitive argument. All good points but in the end, there is nothing wrong with a Savage action. I agree with those that say Savage actions are not as "attractive" as the Remington but that doesn't mean the Savage is diminished in any way. Both companies make good rifles that are safe and shoot well. It is like cars, some argue for Fords while others argue for Chevrolets while others argue for Honda's. There are plenty of people in this world who enjoy equal success with both rifles. Variety makes the market and the sport better in the end and encourages innovation.

Not a savage fan but well said

 

[LHSmith]

There are plenty of people in this world who enjoy equal success with both rifles.

This statement is not reconciled with historical fact as evidenced through decades of registered competition match reports. Facts are facts.

 

[JimT]

I think Savage uses the floating bolt head on all actions. ??? If so, they use it on a 375 H&H, 375 Ruger, 338 Lapua Mag, and 338 WinMag. Those are pretty hard hitting. But, am ASSUMING the floating bolt head is used on those calibers. If NOT used, that would call into question the strength of the design.

Phil

Phil, bigger cartridges do not have more pressure, they just shoot bigger bullets and hold more powder.

It's like a car tire and a tractor tire. A car tire usually hold 45 psi. while a tractor tire is about 20 to 30 PSI. Size does not determine pressure.

Erik they may operate at the same pressure the larger cartridges will have a higher bolt thrust due to the larger surface area for the pressure to act on.

Possibly, but the brass also has more surface area to grip the chamber walls.

The point is, that the big mags and the smaller cartridges are not that much different on the stress that they apply to an action.

There's a world of difference between the bolt thrust of a .223 Remington and an Ultramag/Short Mag case. Tis the actual force in pounds that hammer the bolt lugs. Brass gripping the chamber is irrelevant, the force is the pressure against the cartridge head internal surface area...

Bolt set back...

Are you saying that cartridge design has no impact on bolt thrust?

 

[ttfreestyle]

LET IT GO ALREADY geez

 

[BoydAllen]

Just to clarify, PSI stands for pounds per square inch, and since larger case heads have significantly more area than smaller ones, and we multiply the PSI by the area to get the actual force in pounds, there is a difference in the force applied to bolt lugs by calibers of different head diameters. I also believe that there are other factors at work, but for safety sake, designs should not count on these being optimized.

 

[Phil]

I can`t tell you why one is better than another,that is subjective to the end user.

I can tell you that I use the Remington actions simply because of the parts availability.

The "exploded" pictures Donovan provided tell a lot in my mind,i am a simple guy who likes things I can understand.

Enjoy whatever you decide to use,it`s your money and your choice do with it whatever the **** you want.

Shoot straight and often,but most of all have FUN!!!!!!

 

[BoydAllen]

+1

 

[JimT]

Just to clarify, PSI stands for pounds per square inch, and since larger case heads have significantly more area than smaller ones, and we multiply the PSI by the area to get the actual force in pounds, there is a difference in the force applied to bolt lugs by calibers of different head diameters. I also believe that there are other factors at work, but for safety sake, designs should not count on these being optimized.

I understand this.

I think P.O. Ackley did some testing to determine just how much "chamber pressure" is transferred to actual pressure against the bolt or other locking system. What he found is that lessening body taper actually resulted in significantly less pressure being exerted on the bolt. In fact, he fired a .30/30 Improved in a Model 94 Winchester that he had removed the locking lug from and did not suffer any adverse effects.

He summarized the results of testing in this area with the following statement: "the tests described seem to indicate that a very small percentage of the CHAMBER pressure was transferred to the breech bolt in the form of thrust." (Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders, Vol. 1, fourth printing, page 147).

I believe the PSI you are referring to above is chamber pressure (force against the chamber walls) not the pressure being applied to the actual bolt face. Accordingly, the variable of case design (taper) also needs to be taken into account (as Ackley proved) in addition to case head size.

Now I could be wrong, and I am sure someone will point out where I have gone astray.