Moving backers at 1,000 yards???
- Thread starter Dave Way
- Start date
Alex Wheeler
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That is an obvious one
Northridge
Gold $$ Contributor
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
No,
Did have at least one but cannot find it. Never took a picture of both the target and the backer for a disputed hole. Think always the shooter keeps the target and the backer was thrown out.
Doug Bell is one shooter here that has seen multiple examples of a backer clearing up doubt. Take a look at any coroplast 1/4 " ( think 4mm) thick coroplast sheet with bullet holes. Going in they look like any target on entrance. It is the exit side that is quite a surprise. Teeny holes on exits. The sheets must stretch and then close back over the hole leaving just something about the size of the meplat.
Since bullets yaw or are induced to yaw or tumble going through the target and backer, those teeny meplat exit holes just do not seem to be identical. I guess they could be but what I have tested and seen show more than one of those tiny exit holes. That shows more than one bullet went through that location.
Perfect? In this world there is no absolute or perfect for everything. Helpful? Absolutely.
I would not want to put on a serious shoot without backers. Try it and see for yourself. The backer is a valuable tool to help make the correct decision on targets with fewer than the correct number of impacts.
We need to work on that Clay.
Unless you have a leaning Backer or a moving backer there’s no way to determine I don’t care what you think you see.
jackieschmidt
Gold $$ Contributor
I can give you an opinion as a Short Range Group Shooter.
All register 100/200/300 yard Matches must have a moving backer in order to be sanctioned by either the NBRSA or IBS.
For decades, this has served us well. However, in the past 10 years, we have seen a distinct decline in Clubs wishing to put on Group Matches because of the hassle of using and maintaining the moving backer system.
This is one reason so many Clubs are opting to shoot Score.
But we have to have a moving backer in Short Range Group. Groups that are impossible to ascertain 5 or 10 shots are really quite common.
My advice would be to do a survey and see just how many targets during the Season get caught for not having the proper number of shots. If it is indeed so minuscule that the cure is worse than the ailment, then think twice about requiring Clubs to have even another hassle addEd to the many that now keep people from wanting to put on a Match.
Just a reality to think about.
All register 100/200/300 yard Matches must have a moving backer in order to be sanctioned by either the NBRSA or IBS.
For decades, this has served us well. However, in the past 10 years, we have seen a distinct decline in Clubs wishing to put on Group Matches because of the hassle of using and maintaining the moving backer system.
This is one reason so many Clubs are opting to shoot Score.
But we have to have a moving backer in Short Range Group. Groups that are impossible to ascertain 5 or 10 shots are really quite common.
My advice would be to do a survey and see just how many targets during the Season get caught for not having the proper number of shots. If it is indeed so minuscule that the cure is worse than the ailment, then think twice about requiring Clubs to have even another hassle addEd to the many that now keep people from wanting to put on a Match.
Just a reality to think about.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
It would be very difficult and expensive to build, operate and maintain a moving backer at the Manatee 600 yard public range. Right now I struggle to get enough volunteers to do target crew. It is a lot of extra work to transport and set up the target line, run carts down to service targets and re-paint the sighter plates. When I added on the 12" x 12" coroplast backer installation and change, it made things even more time-consuming and labor intensive.
To require a moving backer would be the end of our program. To have NO backer is to encourage trouble, like we surely had a few years ago before I added the backers to our program.
As for how many four-shot targets we get, all year we have club shoots outside of our scheduled IBS shoots. I do not use backers for those shoots. Too much expense and trouble. Well, we do see four shot targets. I just give them to the shooter and let them decide. It is for fun so every shooter just says a version of "phooey" and we ignore the target. it actually does happen nearly once at each event.
Our last IBS shoot this February had TWO four-shot targets. Tom Jacobs and Mark Niezbatowski both shot them. Unfortunately for Mark his backer slipped down as the target crew did not attach his like I tell them. Without a backer we had to do a DQ as, like Toms' earlier target, there is no conclusive target evidence of a 5th shot on that paper.
I say those of you that run IBS shoots should start experimenting with a 4mm ( 1/4") thick coroplast backer behind the scoring ring of your target placements. They need to be the material with the waffle pattern between the outside layers. Foam filled or solid pieces do not work anywhere near as well. You try and see for yourself.
To require a moving backer would be the end of our program. To have NO backer is to encourage trouble, like we surely had a few years ago before I added the backers to our program.
As for how many four-shot targets we get, all year we have club shoots outside of our scheduled IBS shoots. I do not use backers for those shoots. Too much expense and trouble. Well, we do see four shot targets. I just give them to the shooter and let them decide. It is for fun so every shooter just says a version of "phooey" and we ignore the target. it actually does happen nearly once at each event.
Our last IBS shoot this February had TWO four-shot targets. Tom Jacobs and Mark Niezbatowski both shot them. Unfortunately for Mark his backer slipped down as the target crew did not attach his like I tell them. Without a backer we had to do a DQ as, like Toms' earlier target, there is no conclusive target evidence of a 5th shot on that paper.
I say those of you that run IBS shoots should start experimenting with a 4mm ( 1/4") thick coroplast backer behind the scoring ring of your target placements. They need to be the material with the waffle pattern between the outside layers. Foam filled or solid pieces do not work anywhere near as well. You try and see for yourself.
CaptainMal
Silver $$ Contributor
Interesting as I did not see that target until long after the match was over. did not even know of it until then. The scorer later told me about the missing backer and it was not called for review.
Looks like the largest exit meplat hole is the top one - looking from the back of the target. When you look at the exits from the back there is certainly a sideways tear in that center hole. I have seen that multiple times from bullet yaw in multiple holes on the same target.
That electronic gizmo says there are two holes in that one. How it is set up is unknown to me. Is it correct? Again, unknown. Looking at the petals shows nothing conclusive. Man I wish we had a backer for that. This is exactly the kind of issue that happens over and over.
Adding another observation. NONE of the entry patterns have a perfect center hole in the entire petal pattern. All of them show that center hole a bit off center, showing some minor bullet yaw on each entry. In most cases that electronic gizmo has a black pattern sticking out around that circle somewhere. The one with the slightly torn exit back reminds me of torn paper I have seen many times on a single bullet entrance with some yaw.
Also noticing that electronic gizmo is maybe centered on the "X". It is slightly above the "x". That tells me that gizmo is not exactly placed and those results are "relative".
You need a backer. From what I was told the backer fell sideways and missed these impacts. Our review team was NOT contacted on this target to my knowledge. I was the alternate so would not have been contacted anyhow.
It is over but a good reason why you must have a backer. This does happen and happens more often than many think.
Looks like the largest exit meplat hole is the top one - looking from the back of the target. When you look at the exits from the back there is certainly a sideways tear in that center hole. I have seen that multiple times from bullet yaw in multiple holes on the same target.
That electronic gizmo says there are two holes in that one. How it is set up is unknown to me. Is it correct? Again, unknown. Looking at the petals shows nothing conclusive. Man I wish we had a backer for that. This is exactly the kind of issue that happens over and over.
Adding another observation. NONE of the entry patterns have a perfect center hole in the entire petal pattern. All of them show that center hole a bit off center, showing some minor bullet yaw on each entry. In most cases that electronic gizmo has a black pattern sticking out around that circle somewhere. The one with the slightly torn exit back reminds me of torn paper I have seen many times on a single bullet entrance with some yaw.
Also noticing that electronic gizmo is maybe centered on the "X". It is slightly above the "x". That tells me that gizmo is not exactly placed and those results are "relative".
You need a backer. From what I was told the backer fell sideways and missed these impacts. Our review team was NOT contacted on this target to my knowledge. I was the alternate so would not have been contacted anyhow.
It is over but a good reason why you must have a backer. This does happen and happens more often than many think.
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