March 10-60 Vs NF Comp 15-55. Which do you prefer for F class and why.

[gunsandgunsmithing]

The test Alex is proposing is a good one and has merit, but is not the end all, be all test. Everything moves...the base, the target, the rest, the scope tube, the rifle action, the frozen scope...etc. Heat and thermal expansion/contraction at the gun adds up very fast at 100 yards or more. One thousandth of an inch movement between the spacing of the rings is roughly 1 inch at 100 yards.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Mike, any test can be discredited. The only way this one will have skewed results is if the space between the scopes changes. The mount can slip on the gun and that wont effect results. If the rings are tight they are not going to move under the 6br recoil. If I suspect the adjustable mounts I'll take them off and put the frozen scope in regular rings and dial over to that one. If the temp changes 100 degrees in the 5 minutes I will be performing the test and the base grows it will expand and spread the scopes apart, I dont think I will be able to pick up .010" any how. The shift will have to be large enough for me to see it with my eye. If I dont know how to mount a scope by now, then theres no help for me.

 

[BartsBullets]

View attachment 1008476 Mike, any test can be discredited. The only way this one will have skewed results is if the space between the scopes changes. The mount can slip on the gun and that wont effect results. If the rings are tight they are not going to move under the 6br recoil. If I suspect the adjustable mounts I'll take them off and put the frozen scope in regular rings and dial over to that one. If the temp changes 100 degrees in the 5 minutes I will be performing the test and the base grows it will expand and spread the scopes apart, I dont think I will be able to pick up .010" any how. The shift will have to be large enough for me to see it with my eye. If I dont know how to mount a scope by now, then theres no help for me.

View attachment 1008474

Alex,


Your test will work perfectly with that mount! The more you use it the more your eyes will open up about optics moving. I talked Charlie into making the Scope checker. It has been an invaluable tool over the years. I believe since 2003. I used it to help win my first Nationals.


Anyone that try's to tell you it won't work, doesn't have a clue! Let them keep clicking their scope in a box pattern and thinking they're fine.


You don't even need a locked scope to figure out if there is a problem! Just two scopes mounted side by side and a well tuned rifle.


Bart

 

[dmoran]

Where's the wing nuts?

+1 ..... I was wondering that to?
Alex - call your old friends in FL, they use wing nuts on projects, they may share.

Very nice mount ... how much for a triple version (dove tail center) ?
Donovan

 

[bpmoss1]

I bet the op didn't see this coming

 

[Alex Wheeler]

+1 ..... I was wondering that to?
Alex - call your old friends in FL, they use wing nuts on projects, they may share.

Very nice mount ... how much for a triple version (dove tail center) ?
Donovan

LOL, I thought about doing that, but I'll just have to mount the scope in pic rings. If I use extra hieght rings I could leave the dovetail rings on the scope so you wouldnt have to take them off. They are not for sale unfortunately. Just too much time to make on manual machines, I couldnt sell them at a fair price and make it worth my while. Maybe Santa will bring you one.

 

[bpmoss1]

Just think how much info there is in these threads that many would be interested in but it will never found under the titles it's in.

 

[dmoran]

My first scope was a Bosh & Lomb. It didn't have any windage adjustment . Many of BR shooter have the scope frozen Sightron made a scope that had a nylon locking arrangement on the adjustment . So it is nothing new . My nightforce walks the square ever time . I think I'm missing something . Larry

That's an understatement.....

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Alex, Im not trying to discredit the test. I even said I'd is good and has merit.
The Teddy actions had an issue. With that long unsupported shroud over the barrel, it moved with heat.

Bring your gun, with that mount and two scopes mounted outside on a nice hot sunny day, out of the a/c...leave it in the sun a few minutes. If it doesn't move I'll rescind my post and apologize.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Alex, Im not trying to discredit the test. I even said I'd is good and has merit.
The Teddy actions had an issue. With that long unsupported shroud over the barrel, it moved with heat.

Bring your gun, with that mount and two scopes mounted outside on a nice hot sunny day, out of the a/c...leave it in the sun a few minutes. If it doesn't move I'll rescind my post and apologize.

No need to apologize, lol. This stuff isnt personal. A good test for sure. My thinking says the base will grow in a linear fashion. So, if the 2 two scopes end up .005" farther apart the cross hairs will show .005" apart and I'll never see that. For it to create a real issue the base would need to grow more on one end than the other to take the scopes off the same plane. I certainly will do that test. It may be some time before I'll have a hot day and AC though

 

[savagedasher]

+1 ..... I was wondering that to?
Alex - call your old friends in FL, they use wing nuts projects, bet they might share.

PS: very nice mount !.!.!
Donovan

Alex, Im not trying to discredit the test. I even said I'd is good and has merit.
The Teddy actions had an issue. With that long unsupported shroud over the barrel, it moved with heat.

Bring your gun, with that mount and two scopes mounted outside on a nice hot sunny day, out of the a/c...leave it in the sun a few minutes. If it doesn't move I'll rescind my post and apologize.[/QUOTE
Sound like knowledge talking . Larry

 

[Kyle Schultz]

If a scope passes muster today, can I be confident that it will be good to good next week or next year? Said another way, is a bad scope bad from day 1 or does it "break" somewhere along the way?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

If a scope passes muster today, can I be confident that it will be good to good next week or next year? Said another way, is a bad scope bad from day 1 or does it "break" somewhere along the way?

Hi Kyle,
I would certainly say either is very possible. You could very well buy a brand new scope that may meet the quality standards of the maker yet not be good enough for BR. It could move a little or a lot. If it moves a lot, I'd expect any reputable maker to repair or replace it. It's when they move a little that is the gray area.

They can gradually go bad or go bad all at once, too. And yes, a scope can be good today and fail tomorrow.

Lenses can shift, wear can occur, reticles fail, etc.

 

[dkhunt14]

Alex, Im not trying to discredit the test. I even said I'd is good and has merit.
The Teddy actions had an issue. With that long unsupported shroud over the barrel, it moved with heat.

Bring your gun, with that mount and two scopes mounted outside on a nice hot sunny day, out of the a/c...leave it in the sun a few minutes. If it doesn't move I'll rescind my post and apologize.

I wouldn't test a scope on a hot day. Usually, Too much mirage. I wold wait till perfect conditions when I can really see and shoot. Seeing it is a test you can wait for conditions to be good. Matt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

@johara1 found that some of his comp scopes were holding when new but started to move after x amount of rounds. Maybe he will comment on that. What I am really looking for is trends. If, over the years of testing I see scopes that rarely have issues vs others that seem plagued thats going to build confidence in those scopes.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Looks like Mike may bring the scope checker back to market.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I wouldn't test a scope on a hot day. Usually, Too much mirage. I wold wait till perfect conditions when I can really see and shoot. Seeing it is a test you can wait for conditions to be good. Matt

Looks like Mike may bring the scope checker back to market.

Thanks Alex. I plan to talk with Charlie for his approval and input. I do believe it's a good tool that will show significant comparative changes between the two scopes, under recoil... which IMHO, is what the tool is designed to do well. I'm more interested than ever in your test results, though.

 

[johara1]

@johara1 found that some of his comp scopes were holding when new but started to move after x amount of rounds. Maybe he will comment on that. What I am really looking for is trends. If, over the years of testing I see scopes that rarely have issues vs others that seem plagued thats going to build confidence in those scopes.

Alex, My first two were used, the first was 2013. It seemed to shoot ok but I took it to a 1000 yard match and it was a absolute failure with the critical eye box and after the NXS I couldn't use it. The second was used a 2014 and it had movement from the start and was sent back for repair and it came back stating nothing was wrong. It shot as bad coming back from service as it did before it left. Numbers 3 and 4 were both new and shot good for a short time, I can not guess how many rounds on each but made on for 3 barrels each but in both cases put on the 10-60 March and the problem went away and small groups would repeat. The darkness of the March and more critical eye box kept it in the box and trying to make the NF. 15-55 work. I will no longer spend that kind of time and money to make a scope work only to get a bs. story about the rings and or base being bad. They definitely have an issue, but I'm sure there are some good ones out there or maybe some can't see the small amount of movement that is there. Sorry I can't be more help, I will stick with the new March scopes....... Jim

 

[Jefferson]

as one who sometimes pays attention to my fellow short range BR guys (even when Bart offers up some clear spring water at the SShoot), I remember one the USA team members back in 2007 selling a state of the art BR scope for a really great price at the SS and asked him after WHY ?

his reply was that the BR scopes of the day were good for about X000 rounds in a 6ppc and after that he sold them and bought new ones. (yes the new ones can move also) the point was everything wears and the movement on a worn out scope will cost you the match, point taken,

remember Bart for a great shooter your or any great bullets do not stand in the way of a great shooter and the same can be said of a great scope think about it, if I have 5 perfectly executed shots and the scope does not hold point of aim there is no small group, same with the bullet example,


I sold the scope that was on the gun the won the small target at the US nationals at 200 yards about 1200 targets a few years later after many thousand rounds rather than getting it rebuilt a third time, still seemed to hold point aim, and bought a 40x march with a raised reticle,

one of the two sightrons I sent get frozen had a loose part in and would have given the owner fits over a few ears and was only found when getting the frozen treatment from new,

holding point of aim is critical in these accuracy sports, without it just stay home

Jefferson

 

[BartsBullets]

as one who sometimes pays attention to my fellow short range BR guys (even when Bart offers up some clear spring water at the SShoot), I remember one the USA team members back in 2007 selling a state of the art BR scope for a really great price at the SS and asked him after WHY ?

his reply was that the BR scopes of the day were good for about X000 rounds in a 6ppc and after that he sold them and bought new ones. (yes the new ones can move also) the point was everything wears and the movement on a worn out scope will cost you the match, point taken,

remember Bart for a great shooter your or any great bullets do not stand in the way of a great shooter and the same can be said of a great scope think about it, if I have 5 perfectly executed shots and the scope does not hold point of aim there is no small group, same with the bullet example,


I sold the scope that was on the gun the won the small target at the US nationals at 200 yards about 1200 targets a few years later after many thousand rounds rather than getting it rebuilt a third time, still seemed to hold point aim, and bought a 40x march with a raised reticle,

one of the two sightrons I sent get frozen had a loose part in and would have given the owner fits over a few ears and was only found when getting the frozen treatment from new,

holding point of aim is critical in these accuracy sports, without it just stay home

Jefferson

Jefferson,

Ive spent a lot of time testing scopes. Much the same as what Alex is doing with the scope checker. Billy and I would always test our scopes before a big match. Anything mechanical can and will break. At one point I had 20,000 dollars of glass in my safe and it was all moving. Out of desperation I tried a Fixed 36 power Valdada and I haven't looked back. I've shot them out to a 1000 yards but I feel the 36 power is a little light for Mid and Long range shooting.

I've got a 15x55 NF and so far it's been rock solid but I'm keeping an eye on it!

Bart

PS
If you have a solid scope take care of it. Treat it like the delicate Precision instrument it is. I cringe every time I see someone carrying a 17 pound gun by the scope. Like it's an M16. Might not hurt a thing, but you won't catch me doing it.