Lots of copper fouling in my 6BR???

[Siiri]

Hey,
So I finally got to go out to shoot my new Savage Model 12 Benchrest, 6Norma Br. I am still breaking it in. I am shooting once then cleaning and I am using Butches Bore Shine. My patches are turning blue 1st a dark blue then a bright blue. After my 2nd shot and I was cleaning my boyfriend noticed that he could see a large amount of copper just in about 1/4 inch in from the crown. So after that we cleaned it really good with lots of brushing then patching until they didn't really come out blue.
Is it common to have this much copper fouling in the barrel?

This is the 1st clean before I went out shooting.

The gaps in between the patches means I brushed. When I 1st started I only brushed 3 times then after we noticed the copper fouling we brushed a ton more and for my last cleaning I brushed 10 times. Also shots 4-6 the patch that is alone is one that I ran through then waited about 10 min before I brushed and ran more patches through.

Also the load is 29 grs of Varget with 105 gr Lapua Scenar bullet, primers CCI NO. 400 and Lapua brass.

 

[Eddie Harren]

I would not use a copper or bronze brush with Butch's or any other copper remover.

 

[fdshuster]

Yes, copper fouling with a new barrel, any make, including my lapped Krieger's, Bartlein's, etc. is common for the first (?) number of rounds fired. Difficult to put a firm number on it, since they are all different, some cleaning up in as few as 10 or 12, some requiring more. If you're seeing copper at the muzzle, there is most likely more throughout the barrel length. One of the reasons I find my borescope so valuable. Butch's will remove the copper, but I must include soak times, slowing down the whole process, so for the initial break-in I would suggest a solvent dedicated to removing the copper. Many choices out there, but I prefer Warthog 1134 for heavy copper removal, and it does not require any soaking time. Being able to use a bronze brush with Butch's is an indication that the copper removal abilities of Butch's is minimal. With Warthog, and other brands, you cannot use, nor do you need, a brush, just a combination of wet and dry patches, with a jag not effected by the solvent, of course.

 

[1000yardstare]

Siiri.....great to see you are finally shooting your new 6BR!!

All barrels are individuals. Some require more break-in than others. Factory barrels usually require more break-in than custom barrels. Even my best Shilen and MacLennon lead-lapped air-gauged barrels usually require 20 shots before shooting tight groups.

Also factory barrels have had proof loads and maybe a few groups shot through them before they leave the factory. Did you give the barrel a thorough cleaning before the first shot?

There is a definite progression in your cleaning patches from shot one to shot 6. Less dark blue in the first patch the more shots through the barrel.

Let us know what your patches and groups are like after shot 20.

Happy Victoria Day!

Bill

 

[Siiri]

Siiri.....great to see you are finally shooting your new 6BR!!

All barrels are individuals. Some require more break-in than others. Factory barrels usually require more break-in than custom barrels. Even my best Shilen and MacLennon lead-lapped air-gauged barrels usually require 20 shots before shooting tight groups.

Also factory barrels have had proof loads and maybe a few groups shot through them before they leave the factory. Did you give the barrel a thorough cleaning before the first shot?

There is a definite progression in your cleaning patches from shot one to shot 6. Less dark blue in the first patch the more shots through the barrel.

Let us know what your patches and groups are like after shot 20.

Happy Victoria Day!

Bill

Yes, I did give it a good cleaning before I went out shooting. The 1st pic is the patches from that cleaning. I feel better knowing that this is a normal thing and it should get better in time.

 

[1000yardstare]

Siiri.....now that I read your posting again I see that you stated the first group of patches were a clean prior to shooting the first time. Guess I saw all that carbon and copper fouling and assumed it was your first shot.

So that ties in with my previous posting that the factory put some rounds down the barrel before it left the factory. It would be a safe bet that they did not clean the barrel between shots. Did a test group come with the rifle?

As for more aggressive copper cleaners, I have always been hesitant to use them in a custom target barrel. So many different opinions as to whether they are safe or not. Some swear by them, some swear at them. They usually have a warning on the label not to leave them in the bore longer than x minutes.

I have read postings in this forum by chaps doing duration tests leaving pieces of metal in the chemicals with a conclusion that they do not harm the metals. But then I have seen postings stating the exact opposite.

Personally I prefer to soak the bore in Butch`s and leave the rifle standing muzzle down on paper towel overnight. The Butch`s drains out and leaves a green/black stain on the towel. Next morning I brush with a nylon brush and Butch`s. A few patches through the bore and you are good to go.

Bill

 

[ridgeway]

Are you using a copper brush and brushing with a bore soaked with Butch's?

 

[STP]

Try one of the bore foams and skip the brushing. It may take a second or third soak cycle until your patches show no blue color. I have not used brushes and traditional solvents (favoring Butche`s before) in 3 years. A borrowed borescope has shown to me that brushing is not needed. I shoot the bore full of foam, then stand the muzzle down on a folded paper towel overnight. When the traces of blue stop, I`m done.

In my case, I shoot moly coated bullets in multiple F-class rifles and do not clean until the seaon is done. No issues to date.

YMMV

Scott

 

[K0na_stinky]

Try one of the bore foams and skip the brushing. It may take a second or third soak cycle until your patches show no blue color. I have not used brushes and traditional solvents (favoring Butche`s before) in 3 years. A borrowed borescope has shown to me that brushing is not needed. I shoot the bore full of foam, then stand the muzzle down on a folded paper towel overnight. When the traces of blue stop, I`m done.

In my case, I shoot moly coated bullets in multiple F-class rifles and do not clean until the seaon is done. No issues to date.

YMMV

Scott

That is pretty interesting. In this point of the game I don't think Siiri and I should change how we clean our barrels. (Siiri being my girlfriend)

Siiri and I were just worried about the massive amount of copper visible in the barrel. We have never seen anything like it. Also we have never had a rifle copper foul this bad. Even my 204 ruger didn't come close to this when it was new.

Thanks for the info though.

 

[cmillard]

get some sweets or some shooters choice. run a wet patch down the bore and let sit for about 5 minutes. take another patch and soak in hydrogen peroxide. make sure the patch is tight. push very, very slowly down the bore. put a white paper towel under the muzzle. if your barrel is having copper fouling problems, small, thin strips of copper will come out on the patch. then finish with some hoppes and then a dry patch.

 

[bozo699]

Siiri,
I am really glad to hear you got your 6br from savage it's about time. Don't worry to much about the copper yet especially if it is shooting good. James, there are several reasons you might be seeing more copper in the 6br then your other rifles, factory barrels tend to have more tooling marks in the chamber and throat area's then customs do, the reason I believe your seeing more copper is the long bearing surface of the Lapua bullets. Everyone breaks there barrels in and cleans them differently then the next guy does, however my methods are similar to cmillards and fdshuster. Siiri you and James can always call or P.M me if you need help, but if I were you and had questions about your 6br and or cleaning I would P.M fdshuster he is very knowledgeable and helpful in a way you can understand, BoydAllen, and TheBlueEyedBear are also a wealth of info. The combo you are shooting should shoot if you get your seating depth right.
I hope this helps some.
Wayne.

 

[Siiri]

Here is my latest clean... Just 2 shots though it on this cleaning. I used butches bore shine and just patched it out until they turned white then brushed it 10 times then patched it out again until they turned white again.
I have noticed that the copper that I can see at the muzzle is now turning out to be more streaky then just blobs.

Thanks for all the help everyone!

 

[bozo699]

Siiri,
I think you about to get it, I had a Shilen select match I put on my .264wm one time I thought I was never going to get it to break in,... then just like yours at about shot 19 out of the blue it just started cleaning with just a patch or two,
it's one of my best shooting and easiest cleaning rifles,
( next to my factory 6.5*284 F-Class Savage ) Stick with it Siiri it will be worth it in the end to you I promise. I will be sitting at the edge of my seat to hear how it groups Don't cheat though finish breaking it in. There is a lot of people that will say what your doing is a waste of time, including some of the barrel makers, but I STRONGLY disagree I think you will have a real shooter and a easy cleaner when you get done
Wayne.

 

[MGYSGT]

I have a Savage like yours. If you look at the barrel with a borescope you will see the tool marks left by the machine process. Much more than that on a Krieger or others. If you don't stay ahead of the copper, your accuracy will drop off. At least that is what mine did. I switched to Wipe Out for that gun and it returned to a good shooter. The only problem with Wipe Out, is that it takes so long to clean the barrel. I just do other things like brass and such while it is working. It probably wouldn't be the best choice for cleaning at the range between shots while breaking in.

 

[Siiri]

Hey,
Here are my latest cleanings.

Here is the first 3 shot group. Group measured 0.538" outside to outside. 0.538-0.243=0.295"

 

[expiper]

Nice target...1/2 bullet of vertical.....the left-n-rite is prolly wind.....keep cleaning and practice/practice...Roger
PS,,,use some Flitz or Semichrome cleaner ...when you think you got it clean...use some of that stuff...it will make the bore shine like a mirror....!!!!

 

[bozo699]

Hey,
Here are my latest cleanings.

Here is the first 3 shot group. Group measured 0.538" outside to outside. 0.538-0.243=0.295"

Siiri,
A .295" group is nothing to sneeze at, I would imagine you could easily be able to do that with five shot groups with just a little work, Congratulations
Does James have his 6.5*284 yet? He is going to have to pay attention to what he is doing if he plans on keeping up with groups like these You two take care and keep us updated.
Wayne

 

[K0na_stinky]

Siiri,
A .295" group is nothing to sneeze at, I would imagine you could easily be able to do that with five shot groups with just a little work, Congratulations
Does James have his 6.5*284 yet? He is going to have to pay attention to what he is doing if he plans on keeping up with groups like these You two take care and keep us updated.
Wayne

Wayne I decided on a 6br also, and I'm still waiting. :'(

I think Siiris flyer could be from shooting from a clean bore with no sighters. Also maybe the $200 scope I lent her

I've been having great luck with my 204ruger though. Shoots in the 2's most times.

 

[artbosco]

Is it common to have this much copper fouling in the barrel?

In mass produced barrels? Yes!

Long bearing surface bullets and their jacket material as well as some barrel twists may be half the problem too.

Here's the complete story by Dan Lilja of Lilja Barrels: http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/barrel_making/barrel_fouling.htm

 

[jo191145]

See if you can locate some Lock-Ease in a plastic squeeze bottle (not the aerosol spray) in a Hardware store.
Once your bore is TOTALLY clean of copper run a few patches of Lock-Ease through it and allow to dry.
Good chance on your next outing copper will be nonexistant. If you still have copper problems it will wash out much easier.

I personally have never located the Lock-Ease in squeeze bottles.
I have used the aeriosol with excellent results breaking in factory tubes. No cleaning rods required just shoot till smooth.
I do not recommend the aerosol simply because its a different formula. The aerosol does not fully dry. Used carefully thats not a problem. Get a little too much liquid in the bore for that first shot and you can make an accurate barrel inaccurate in a hurry.

Simply switching gunpowders can help immensly for break in. Something moderatly dirty burning like Win-748 can create a layer of fouling along the entire bore that can serve as a protective barrier between the jacket and steel. Might not find any accuracy with it but it will help smooth the bore. Ball powders of a slightly faster than optimal burn rate usually accomplish this best.

The entire trick behind barrel breakin is to get bullets down the bore without leaving copper behind. Accomplish that and the barrel will smooth up pretty quick (without cleaning) unless it has serious toolmarks in it.