Lots of copper fouling in my 6BR???
- Thread starter Siiri
- Start date
Friend of mine bought a 7 twist .223 left load 2 oz Savage when it first came out. The very first group he fired (with no break in) was not impressive. Fired a few more lousy groups with a load that to me didn`t have a chance. He proceeded to examine the muzzle with a jeweller`s loupe finding in his mind all sorts of burrs and tool marks.
He took it back to the gun shop demanding a refund. Another club member bought it as a used gun. Has had no trouble with it. After his usual break-in routine he started to shoot small groups. He does not spend a lot of time cleaning the bores of his guns. Just good enough. He does spend his time on working up accurate loads. He has never examined the bore of the rifle. Doesn`t care. Says it is a good way to mess up your mind when you should be concentrating on load development and shooting.
I have an F Class buddy who bought a high-end bore scope. Rifles that shot very well for him all of a sudden were clunkers after he examined the bores and saw the surface of the moon. He had convinced himself that good rifles had gone sour and shot accordingly. Funny how the human mind works. Sort of like if you want to enjoy a meal in a nice restaurant, never ask for a tour of the kitchen.
We all have our own way of looking at a situation. I tend to be in the camp of shoot the darn thing without getting too hung up on the first 50 rounds of a rifle`s life. If a dedicated target rifle still won`t tighten up after 200 rounds then you might have a problem. But I suspect you will have seen good results by then.
A lot of it is in the attitude of the shooter.
Good luck.
Bill
He took it back to the gun shop demanding a refund. Another club member bought it as a used gun. Has had no trouble with it. After his usual break-in routine he started to shoot small groups. He does not spend a lot of time cleaning the bores of his guns. Just good enough. He does spend his time on working up accurate loads. He has never examined the bore of the rifle. Doesn`t care. Says it is a good way to mess up your mind when you should be concentrating on load development and shooting.
I have an F Class buddy who bought a high-end bore scope. Rifles that shot very well for him all of a sudden were clunkers after he examined the bores and saw the surface of the moon. He had convinced himself that good rifles had gone sour and shot accordingly. Funny how the human mind works. Sort of like if you want to enjoy a meal in a nice restaurant, never ask for a tour of the kitchen.
We all have our own way of looking at a situation. I tend to be in the camp of shoot the darn thing without getting too hung up on the first 50 rounds of a rifle`s life. If a dedicated target rifle still won`t tighten up after 200 rounds then you might have a problem. But I suspect you will have seen good results by then.
A lot of it is in the attitude of the shooter.
Good luck.
Bill
Siiri, I don't think your barrel problems are being solved here.
The best way to break-in that barrel is Tubbs FinalFinish(firelapping).
10rnds total, coarse to fine, I push a single dry patch between each, DONE..
It's what the factory should have done.
With that you should be able to shoot 25 without 'fouling out'(opening groups).
You can then prefoul barrel & coat bullets with tungsten(WS2), to extend shooting 100rds+ between cleanings.
The best barrel makers lap them to just the right roughness. Not too smooth, and not too rough.
If not for chambering & finishing, these barrels would need no break-in at all.
Savage obviously didn't, and also, what ever you do, never 'polish' a bore..
Firelapping does not polish, but knocks off the hi spots and puts the finish back to a standard roughness that produces less copper.
Every couple hundred, fire a FF bullet(finest remaining in kit) to keep throat erosion somewhat square to the chamber.
The best way to break-in that barrel is Tubbs FinalFinish(firelapping).
10rnds total, coarse to fine, I push a single dry patch between each, DONE..
It's what the factory should have done.
With that you should be able to shoot 25 without 'fouling out'(opening groups).
You can then prefoul barrel & coat bullets with tungsten(WS2), to extend shooting 100rds+ between cleanings.
The best barrel makers lap them to just the right roughness. Not too smooth, and not too rough.
If not for chambering & finishing, these barrels would need no break-in at all.
Savage obviously didn't, and also, what ever you do, never 'polish' a bore..
Firelapping does not polish, but knocks off the hi spots and puts the finish back to a standard roughness that produces less copper.
Every couple hundred, fire a FF bullet(finest remaining in kit) to keep throat erosion somewhat square to the chamber.
AckleymanII
Gold $$ Contributor
Siiri, on barrels that copper foul
it is best to get a better cleaning regiment.
Montana Extreme Copper killer along with their plastic brush will take the copper out right now.
Butches was like using Kool Aide in barrels that pick up fouling quickly.
it is best to get a better cleaning regiment.
Montana Extreme Copper killer along with their plastic brush will take the copper out right now.
Butches was like using Kool Aide in barrels that pick up fouling quickly.
Dont overlook JB bore paste especially for factory barrels. You can also try running a LIGHTLY oiled patch of Kroil down the bore after cleaning. I never shoot a fouling shot down a dry bore. Hope this helps!
I got the impression that this thread isn't about barrel cleaning, but barrel breakin/actions -to reduce the need.
OP should not accept so much copper stripped from bullet jackets to begin.
None of us should, and she's right to be concerned. Actions are in order beyond continually cleaning copper back out.
JB & Montana, etc, are great cleaners. Never in a million years do they break in barrels to PREVENT fouling..
OP should not accept so much copper stripped from bullet jackets to begin.
None of us should, and she's right to be concerned. Actions are in order beyond continually cleaning copper back out.
JB & Montana, etc, are great cleaners. Never in a million years do they break in barrels to PREVENT fouling..
Siiri.........had a 900/1000 yd F Class practise yesterday. Two new Savage M12 BenchRest 6BRs there. Both Lapua brass, 105 Scenars, Varget. Don`t know primers or exact powder charge. Wind was true all day, 10 clicks at 10 o`clock.
One owned by a friend shooting long range since the 1980s, back then Palma and now F Class. He had a 50 yd zero and has enough experience to figure out elevation and wind and hit the paper with his first shot at 900 yds (51st shot down the new barrel). Dialed it in and started drilling the International 10 inch 5 ring with the occasional V in the 5 inch centre ring. Went back to 1000 yds, same target. One shot to get his elevation and then centre of the bull for the rest of the afternoon. He uses the same barrel cleaning procedure as me, soak overnight with Shooters Choice muzzle down on a paper towel. Finish up with Butchs next morning. He never examined the bore. His attitude is the same as mine. If it performs the way you want on target then don`t get too hung up on some scratches in a factory barrel.
The other 6BR is a newbie. Had a 100 yd zero and about 10 shots down the bore. Has no cleaning technique to speak of so we gave him suggestions on that. Terrible rear bag so he didn`t have a real steady hold. My friend used his experience to put the wind and elevation on at 900. First shot high and right. Coached him down to the centre. He was more in the 4 ring than the 5 but I think that was due to his unsteady hold. At 1000 he was coached onto the paper and stayed around the centre for the rest of his string. He was so happy getting his 900 and 1000 comeups first time out that he didn`t really care about anything else.
So I saw two new 6 BRs like yours. Both shot great all things considered. Both shooters were there to enjoy the day and zero their new rifles at long range. Two nice looking rifles.
Bill
One owned by a friend shooting long range since the 1980s, back then Palma and now F Class. He had a 50 yd zero and has enough experience to figure out elevation and wind and hit the paper with his first shot at 900 yds (51st shot down the new barrel). Dialed it in and started drilling the International 10 inch 5 ring with the occasional V in the 5 inch centre ring. Went back to 1000 yds, same target. One shot to get his elevation and then centre of the bull for the rest of the afternoon. He uses the same barrel cleaning procedure as me, soak overnight with Shooters Choice muzzle down on a paper towel. Finish up with Butchs next morning. He never examined the bore. His attitude is the same as mine. If it performs the way you want on target then don`t get too hung up on some scratches in a factory barrel.
The other 6BR is a newbie. Had a 100 yd zero and about 10 shots down the bore. Has no cleaning technique to speak of so we gave him suggestions on that. Terrible rear bag so he didn`t have a real steady hold. My friend used his experience to put the wind and elevation on at 900. First shot high and right. Coached him down to the centre. He was more in the 4 ring than the 5 but I think that was due to his unsteady hold. At 1000 he was coached onto the paper and stayed around the centre for the rest of his string. He was so happy getting his 900 and 1000 comeups first time out that he didn`t really care about anything else.
So I saw two new 6 BRs like yours. Both shot great all things considered. Both shooters were there to enjoy the day and zero their new rifles at long range. Two nice looking rifles.
Bill
I'm not sure if Siiri is going to post but her gun is shooting great. She shot another sub 1/2" group at 100 yards tonight. That is including the fouler. With out with first shot the second 2 almost went in the same hole. Tomorrow she is going to try one fouler and then a 3 shot group to see what happens.
Also her gun is getting less visual copper at the muzzle with 3 shots now then she was getting with one before.
Also her gun is getting less visual copper at the muzzle with 3 shots now then she was getting with one before.
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
James,K0na_stinky said:Wayne I decided on a 6br also, and I'm still waiting. :'(bozo699 said:Siiri,
A .295" group is nothing to sneeze at, I would imagine you could easily be able to do that with five shot groups with just a little work, Congratulations
Does James have his 6.5*284 yet? He is going to have to pay attention to what he is doing if he plans on keeping up with groups like theseYou two take care and keep us updated.
Wayne
I think Siiris flyer could be from shooting from a clean bore with no sighters. Also maybe the $200 scope I lent her
I've been having great luck with my 204ruger though. Shoots in the 2's most times.
I didn't catch this post until now, you will be happy with the little 6br, its much more economical than the big 6.5*284, also glad to hear that the little 204 is doing so well. I don't think Sirri has a thing to worry about, I saw through the pics that there was steady improvement with each session of cleaning, it's a factory barrel the tool marks won't go away but it looks like it is cleaning ok and shooting great so who cares! just shoot and have fun doing it, otherwise she will worry herself to death over nothing, shoot the life out of that barrel then order a quality barrel and have several thousand more rounds of fun. As others have stated if its shooting good,...and it is, just smile knowing every time you pull the trigger the bullet is going to be where you wanted it ;D as far as the fouler being out is normal, I would fire a couple foulers then three I think you are going to be happy with the results, on the up side if it never shoots any better then it is right now, it still shoots better then most factory guns and some customs
You two kids enjoy your new rifles,after you get about 100 rounds down the tube post another pic with 5 in one ragged hole.Wayne.
1- As someone mentioned all barrels are a rule unto themselves.
2- There are no copper jags or brushes. There are bronze and brass--which can give you false copper traces since copper is a component of the alloy used to make them. If you will not buy a borescope, you can buy aluminum jags and brushes from Dewey and possibly some other cleaning supply makers.
3- My limited experience with only 15 6mm barrels is that:
a- You get what you pay for. If you buy a factory rifle with a factory barrel you run a much greater chance of having tool marks, uneven bores, inexact rifling, and poor bolt face/bore alignment. Savage has addressed this last to a certain degree.
b- A true match barrel requires very little or no "breaking in"
c- A good 6BR match barrel will strip a bit of copper but it will not require a United Mine Worker's Union card to clear it out. Any good proven all purpose bore cleaner, used properly and brushed aggressively, will do the job.
d- Without a borescope you can never know what is happening in that tube. They are a lot cheaper than they were. The Hawkeye is not the only game in town. There are fiber optic options as good optically and less expensive. Vision Optics makes several.
2- There are no copper jags or brushes. There are bronze and brass--which can give you false copper traces since copper is a component of the alloy used to make them. If you will not buy a borescope, you can buy aluminum jags and brushes from Dewey and possibly some other cleaning supply makers.
3- My limited experience with only 15 6mm barrels is that:
a- You get what you pay for. If you buy a factory rifle with a factory barrel you run a much greater chance of having tool marks, uneven bores, inexact rifling, and poor bolt face/bore alignment. Savage has addressed this last to a certain degree.
b- A true match barrel requires very little or no "breaking in"
c- A good 6BR match barrel will strip a bit of copper but it will not require a United Mine Worker's Union card to clear it out. Any good proven all purpose bore cleaner, used properly and brushed aggressively, will do the job.
d- Without a borescope you can never know what is happening in that tube. They are a lot cheaper than they were. The Hawkeye is not the only game in town. There are fiber optic options as good optically and less expensive. Vision Optics makes several.
amamnn said:
Siiri and I talked about going halfers on a borescope but decided not to. So seeing inside the barrel is out of the question.
I did order a Bore Tech proof positive rod. Along with a few proof positive jags and nylon brushes to use until the copper fouling is done.
amamnm: "You get what you pay for". And with that I'm going to quote from an article in the January 2000 edition, page 63 of Precision Shooting. "An executive with one of the largest rifle manufacturers in the United States recently remarked to a Precision Shooting writer that it costs them approximately $15.00 to make a rifle barrel". The editor , Dave Brennan, later made a comment in the same article, " $15.00-to-make factory barrels..... many of which arrive with bores as rough as the proverbial cob".
With KG-2 you might want to try fire-polishing, (A technique producing a finer finish than Fire Lapping) and for copper KG-12 removes fouling fast.
http://www.eabco.com/KG12Copper.html
" KG-12 and KG-2 Barrel Break-In Procedure - Usually barrel break-in procedures are to fire one or more shots, clean the barrel, fire one or more shots, clean the barrel, and so on until the polishing action of the fired bullets has worn-in the bore surfaces. However, the key ingredient of breaking in a barrel is a clean, un-coppered bore so the fired bullets can wear directly against bare steel as they travel down the bore. High velocity cartridges that foul the bore fast can make breaking in go slow by simply requiring so much waiting time to clean out the copper between shots. We've found that KG12 reduces the cleaning time to 15-30 minutes for even the heaviest copper fouling. And if you add KG-2 bore polish, you can increase the bore polishing effectiveness of each fired break-in shot. Fire a shot, clean with KG-12, swab with KG-2, and fire another shot. Repeat for 5-10 shots. Do not over do it on the KG-2... just swab enough to coat the inside barrel surfaces... we use a patch wrapped around a smaller caliber brush.
Remember, a certain amount of copper fouling is normal. What breaking in a barrel does is increase the number of accurate shots you can take before having to clean out excessive copper fouling. And KG12 is exceptional at removing any and all copper. "
http://www.eabco.com/KG12Copper.html
" KG-12 and KG-2 Barrel Break-In Procedure - Usually barrel break-in procedures are to fire one or more shots, clean the barrel, fire one or more shots, clean the barrel, and so on until the polishing action of the fired bullets has worn-in the bore surfaces. However, the key ingredient of breaking in a barrel is a clean, un-coppered bore so the fired bullets can wear directly against bare steel as they travel down the bore. High velocity cartridges that foul the bore fast can make breaking in go slow by simply requiring so much waiting time to clean out the copper between shots. We've found that KG12 reduces the cleaning time to 15-30 minutes for even the heaviest copper fouling. And if you add KG-2 bore polish, you can increase the bore polishing effectiveness of each fired break-in shot. Fire a shot, clean with KG-12, swab with KG-2, and fire another shot. Repeat for 5-10 shots. Do not over do it on the KG-2... just swab enough to coat the inside barrel surfaces... we use a patch wrapped around a smaller caliber brush.
Remember, a certain amount of copper fouling is normal. What breaking in a barrel does is increase the number of accurate shots you can take before having to clean out excessive copper fouling. And KG12 is exceptional at removing any and all copper. "
NEVER EVER polish a bore. This is NOT what anyone should do.
Break-in is the knocking off of machining high spots only. You can(probably do) have this from chambering/finishing with ANY barrels.
It's the lapping that reduces copper fouling in the long run -after break-in, and NOT because of break-in.
This is the basis for so many barrel makers claiming that break-in is not needed. But then, thay didn't finish your barrel, right? They have no idea what you, the end user, has been left with.
If your barrel was never properly lapped, it will foul badly regardless of break-in. This is factory barrels..
Firelapping with something like Tubbs FF bullets can provide the knocking off of high spots from barrel machining, and provide a lapping finsh that produces less copper.
But if you get carried away with this, especially if you go so far as to 'polish' a bore with something else, you'll increase fouling. 100% guaranteed. Took me 5min with Flitz to ruin a Border barrel that had to that point never produced more than single blue patches.. It instantly went 7-10 blue patches, and even after re-firelapping I could only get it back to 3-4 blue patches. A condition I thought impossible given that my bullets are tungsten coated..
Just passin this along
Break-in is the knocking off of machining high spots only. You can(probably do) have this from chambering/finishing with ANY barrels.
It's the lapping that reduces copper fouling in the long run -after break-in, and NOT because of break-in.
This is the basis for so many barrel makers claiming that break-in is not needed. But then, thay didn't finish your barrel, right? They have no idea what you, the end user, has been left with.
If your barrel was never properly lapped, it will foul badly regardless of break-in. This is factory barrels..
Firelapping with something like Tubbs FF bullets can provide the knocking off of high spots from barrel machining, and provide a lapping finsh that produces less copper.
But if you get carried away with this, especially if you go so far as to 'polish' a bore with something else, you'll increase fouling. 100% guaranteed. Took me 5min with Flitz to ruin a Border barrel that had to that point never produced more than single blue patches.. It instantly went 7-10 blue patches, and even after re-firelapping I could only get it back to 3-4 blue patches. A condition I thought impossible given that my bullets are tungsten coated..
Just passin this along
Just don't see how smoothing rough edges by polishing can increase fouling, in my experience using KG-2 produce mirror like surface which didn't attracted any copper.
I doubt KG-2 does anymore than clean a bore. It doesn't change a bore finish. That's not it's purpose.
Copper is torn from a jackets at high spots, and yet it smears with extended contact/friction.
An actual polished surface greatly increases friction over a lapped surface of just the right finish, that the best barrel makers have come to perfect.
They know what they're doing there.
Copper is torn from a jackets at high spots, and yet it smears with extended contact/friction.
An actual polished surface greatly increases friction over a lapped surface of just the right finish, that the best barrel makers have come to perfect.
They know what they're doing there.
I think it does change bore finish since its 1200-1400grit soft compound.
Here what manufacture of it posted on its website :
" KG-2 was originally developed to maintain the bore integrity of sniper rifles. Unlike most other mechanical products, KG-2 contains no ammonia and is a 1200-1400grit soft compound to remove copper and lead, while leaving the integrity of the bore. In most cases KG-2 will perform exceptionally well in removing copper and lead with quality patches, however, in some cases, nylon brushes are recommended. Based on the theory of removing the copper and lead from the lands and groves only, while simply smoothing over the impregnated copper and lead in the micro-fractures of the bore, KG-2 will help reduce the need for fouling shots and it is recommended and used by SWAT and sniper teams.
"
http://www.kgcoatings.com/cleaning/kg-2-bore-polish/
Here what manufacture of it posted on its website :
" KG-2 was originally developed to maintain the bore integrity of sniper rifles. Unlike most other mechanical products, KG-2 contains no ammonia and is a 1200-1400grit soft compound to remove copper and lead, while leaving the integrity of the bore. In most cases KG-2 will perform exceptionally well in removing copper and lead with quality patches, however, in some cases, nylon brushes are recommended. Based on the theory of removing the copper and lead from the lands and groves only, while simply smoothing over the impregnated copper and lead in the micro-fractures of the bore, KG-2 will help reduce the need for fouling shots and it is recommended and used by SWAT and sniper teams.
"
http://www.kgcoatings.com/cleaning/kg-2-bore-polish/
My bad, I was looking at KG-12
KG-2 sounds similar NECO's firelapping, and might work well provided it doesn't actually 'polish' lapping provided by the barrel maker.
I guess my angst rests with the scary situation of polishing marketed as a cure for barrel ills.
This is absolutely not what any of us need. But unfortunately, some will learn this as I did.
I am confident only that Tubbs FinalFinish works without damaging bores.
KG-2 sounds similar NECO's firelapping, and might work well provided it doesn't actually 'polish' lapping provided by the barrel maker.
I guess my angst rests with the scary situation of polishing marketed as a cure for barrel ills.
This is absolutely not what any of us need. But unfortunately, some will learn this as I did.
I am confident only that Tubbs FinalFinish works without damaging bores.
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