Long range load development at 100 yards.

[savageshooter86]

Thanks. Going to try and wait to test this when I have a reliable chronograph to shoot through. The initial powder test looked promising but the seating not so much

 

[seidersjoden]

Eric, How big are those groups after you tune the seating depth, and how much vertical at 1k are they giving you? Have you ever had a gun that did not print like that? My groups tent to follow a sine wave pattern, usually the groups that print highest or lowest (when the barrel is at the end of it whip) will give the least vertical and best groups. I shoot a dasher and find my windows are small, if I load .2 either way the load will get vertical.
Thanks

The groups get down in the .1's and .2's after seating depth tuning. That gives somewhere about 4" - 6" groups at 1,000 yards. During competition, I have shot 198's with this load at 1,000 yards.

I would think a ladder test is easier to see vertical spread rather than OCW target testing because there's no need to discern between center of groups with the ladder test, both seem to get the job done but it's seems reading a target would be easier with a ladder test. Just asking, I'm playing devils advocate because I'm trying to talk myself out of the ladder test, had confusing results last week during mine.

Thanks
Joden

Thanks in advance
Joden

 

[Erik Cortina]

Eric, How big are those groups after you tune the seating depth, and how much vertical at 1k are they giving you? Have you ever had a gun that did not print like that? My groups tent to follow a sine wave pattern, usually the groups that print highest or lowest (when the barrel is at the end of it whip) will give the least vertical and best groups. I shoot a dasher and find my windows are small, if I load .2 either way the load will get vertical.
Thanks

The groups get down in the .1's and .2's after seating depth tuning. That gives somewhere about 4" - 6" groups at 1,000 yards. During competition, I have shot 198's with this load at 1,000 yards.

I would think a ladder test is easier to see vertical spread rather than OCW target testing because there's no need to discern between center of groups with the ladder test, both seem to get the job done but it's seems reading a target would be easier with a ladder test. Just asking, I'm playing devils advocate because I'm trying to talk myself out of the ladder test, had confusing results last week during mine.

Thanks
Joden

Thanks in advance
Joden

That is indeed the problem with the ladder test, inconsistent results.

A ladder test will give you a sweet spot even if ES is really high, the problem is that the ladder test will only work at the distance at which you tested but accuracy will fall off if you shoot further, or even closer. The reason for that is that the slower bullets will stay in the barrel longer and leave when the barrel is up, therefore they will be aimed higher. The opposite will happen with a fast bullet. Eventually, the fast bullet and the slow bullets will cross paths, and the ladder test will show that as a node, the problem is that the gun will be inaccurate at other distances.

 

[seidersjoden]

A ladder test will give you a sweet spot even if ES is really high, the problem is that the ladder test will only work at the distance at which you tested but accuracy will fall off if you shoot further, or even closer. The reason for that is that the slower bullets will stay in the barrel longer and leave when the barrel is up, therefore they will be aimed higher. The opposite will happen with a fast bullet. Eventually, the fast bullet and the slow bullets will cross paths, and the ladder test will show that as a node, the problem is that the gun will be inaccurate at other distances.
[/quote]

Oh I see. Never thought about that. One question, I have a custom 30-378, developing a load as we speak, I'm between retime and 50bmg, I've done one ladder test with confusing results at 600y. I used markers and a go pro to track loads but some lower loads hit higher on paper. My question is this, for my caliber people say I need to shoot out further than 100 y because the bullet hasn't settle down enough, any truth to that?

Thanks
Joden

 

[Steve Blair]

My question is this, for my caliber people say I need to shoot out further than 100 y because the bullet hasn't settle down enough, any truth to that?

Thanks
Joden

[br]
No. If it will not group at 100 yards, it will not magically shoot smaller groups at greater distance. I do all load development at 100 yards and compete at 300, 600 and 1000 yards, sometimes with the same rifle. As was already noted, in order to perform well at various distances, a load must be both accurate and have low ES.

 

[Erik Cortina]

"People" are usually only quoting what they have heard, and are usually wrong.

Although they are right in some cases, I like to test at 100 yards so that I can assure that my bullets have settled down at 100 yards. If you can get the bullet to settle down faster, the average BC of the bullet will be higher between muzzle and target.

 

[mikegaiz]

The only competition I shoot in is 1000 yd. Bench rest. Having competed for 7 years with four different cartridges and many barrels in each. Wish I could say that I have the answer to testing. I have had some good results here and there. I had too much trouble testing at 100 to make any type of decision from my data unless I just went on chronograph data and forgot groups. So I went to 300 which is the farthest I have available. I went with a group that was not always the best, but, best vertical, and best good Chrony numbers to support it. Wish I could test at 1000, but then you have wind to try to deal with. There is always something to blame. In 2012 I went to a 300 WSM followed the above testing process and set two IBS 1000 HG 10 Match agg. records and one HG 6 match agg. records, missing the smallest 10 shot group record by .002 in. Yes .002 in. The year had very steady low winds, but matches went from 32* to 104* in the shade. So a good test year with good results. Now that barrel is dead and need to start all over again. Which do you feel is more important, Group or chrony Data? or what? ???

 

[seidersjoden]

What you said makes sense.

Attached is my 600y ladder test for my 30-378 shooting 50bmg powder with 230g berger hybrid target bullets.

The charge weights were 111-115g. The number is listed before the charge weight on the target paper so charge # 1 reads: 1-Purple, 111g. Notice how it is in the middle of the target rather than at the bottom where you figured it would be.

Any feedback here?

Thanks
Joden

 

[Steve Blair]

F-Class is somewhat different but still have the same fundamentals as LR BR. My loads must be accurate (<.25"@100), low ES (<15 fps, preferably <10), in the middle of a wide node (my .300 WSM is .8 grains wide), and hold those numbers for five 5-shot groups fired at 30 second intervals. When all those criteria are met, match performance is excellent. There is still the pilot problem, however. [br]
The only range where I can reasonably test has very tricky winds, so all testing is at 100, over the chrono. Because of this problem, I bought a Kurzzeit PVM 21, probably the best non-professional chrono available. The Labradar is very promising and I hope to see a production model tested soon. [br]
http://www.mylabradar.com/

 

[seidersjoden]

"People" are usually only quoting what they have heard, and are usually wrong.

Although they are right in some cases, I like to test at 100 yards so that I can assure that my bullets have settled down at 100 yards. If you can get the bullet to settle down faster, the average BC of the bullet will be higher between muzzle and target.

So during your testing you do the round robin: shoot load 1 at target 1, load 2 at target 2....correct?

Thanks
Joden

 

[Erik Cortina]

"People" are usually only quoting what they have heard, and are usually wrong.

Although they are right in some cases, I like to test at 100 yards so that I can assure that my bullets have settled down at 100 yards. If you can get the bullet to settle down faster, the average BC of the bullet will be higher between muzzle and target.

So during your testing you do the round robin: shoot load 1 at target 1, load 2 at target 2....correct?

Thanks
Joden

No, I shoot one group at a time.

 

[Biggdawg]

Just an update on my 200 lrx win mag load. this system works, i am a novice long range shooter just started this year preparing for a hunt of a lifetime. this system works.

with your help i have my load and seating depth and was able to shoot my first group at 500 yards. it was 2" 3 shot group and i was extatic. this was my first shots at 500 yards. also hit the steel plate at 700 yards with a 24 mph wind from 1 o'clock on first shot.

thanks again to Erik and all those that help on this thread.

 

[dragman]

I shoot one specific discipline in long range, long range benchrest for steel targets. I do all my load development at 100 yards once I get the group I like and an ES under 10fps I compete with it. in competition the last 3 years I have shot 13 different guns in 6 different calibers and I have been pretty successful with them all ( For those who know me I trade and buy and sell a LOT) and shot probably 25 or 30 more guns than that during this time for one reason or another playing or hunting and that method has always done me well. I am very interested in Eriks groups and data so I keep reading more picking up what I can. No one ever knows it all so take what you can use and leave what you can't.

 

[seidersjoden]

So during your testing you do the round robin: shoot load 1 at target 1, load 2 at target 2....correct?

Thanks
Joden
[/quote]

No, I shoot one group at a time.
[/quote]

Do you have a reason why you don't do the round robin method to spread the loads out over the changing conditions during the test?
Joden

 

[Erik Cortina]

So during your testing you do the round robin: shoot load 1 at target 1, load 2 at target 2....correct?

Thanks
Joden

No, I shoot one group at a time.

Do you have a reason why you don't do the round robin method to spread the loads out over the changing conditions during the test?
Joden

Yes, I find that I can concentrate more on a single group than having to keep track of many groups.

 

[seidersjoden]

Thanks Erik

Joden

 

[BCoates]

I shot this target at 100 yds with my new 308 Win last weekend. It is with 168 SMKs and IMR4064 loaded about 0.010" off the lands. Wind was about 10 mph from 4-8 o'clock. Where should I go from here?

 

[Erik Cortina]

BCoates, do you have any chronograph numbers?
Gun is shooting well.

 

[BCoates]

BCoates, do you have any chronograph numbers?
Gun is shooting well.

I don't have any chrono numbers. I have a Magnetospeed, but I don't like shooting load development with it attached to the barrel. I'm thinking about chronographing 43.4 gr load and 44.4 gr load. My rifle has a 28" barrel, so both should work for shooting up to 600 yds.

 

[Erik Cortina]

BCoates, do you have any chronograph numbers?
Gun is shooting well.

I don't have any chrono numbers. I have a Magnetospeed, but I don't like shooting load development with it attached to the barrel. I'm thinking about chronographing 43.4 gr load and 44.4 gr load. My rifle has a 28" barrel, so both should work for shooting up to 600 yds.

That's a good plan. I also agree with you about not using the magnetospeed while testing.