Lets talk .22LR match ammo (50-100yd)

[kojaone]

From what I have experianced the 457's in general are more picky than the older CZ's and the MTR chambers in particular can be even pickier. I have 2 old 452's that love anything SK or Lapua and even do decently with CCI SV. Neither one will shoot anything Eley or RWS. A lot of my buddies shoot the MTR chambered rifles and just about every one is using Lapua Midas plus at the matches with Center X a close second

My new 457 Varmint, non MTR chambered, is sporadic in nature. One day it will give me .3 groups with ammo A and .6's with ammo B then next range session flip 180. Today it was shooting bugholes with Norma TAC and turning it's nose up at Eley Match.

My advice is try a potpourri of different ammos and let the rifle tell you what it likes. Best place to find them is use the Ammoseek website. Set up a bunch of "notify me" alerts

I am on my third B14r,I have 2 CZ 457's also,bore scoping the fired chambers on all, the carbon ring on the B14 is much,much closer to the throat,the B14 also engraves the bullet a bunch.B14 seems more consistant lot to lot.
My CZ's just tickle the rifling with SK, sometimes not,probally why they can be picky. I confirmed this with different ammo by pulling barrel off and droping different rounds in chamber.
Would be interesting to see the carbon ring in the MTR chamber,I've measured spent casing from an MTR,diameter is exactly same as my 457 varmints.It has to be engraving more.
Be interesting to see if a gunsmith could trim .010 the face and shoulder on a varmint barrel and still function.

 

[Comandante]

For practice ammo that Is generally easy to obtain Tac-22 is great in an MTR. It cycles well in the match chamber, holds respectable accuracy and at $5 box is a great value. I’ve yet to shoot a box that was out in left field compared to others accuracy wise so you can just concentrate on good practice.
Here are a few 10 shot Tac-22 groups shot yesterday at 50 yds. Conditions were gusty crosswind 90 degrees approximately right to left at 10-12 mph, slight mirage. Targets were shot by three different individuals of various skill levels. Rifle: Gen 3 Vudoo repeater with 22” Bartlein barrel and tuner. Rifle has only ever tasted Tac-22 to date with 1400 rounds down range. Tac-22 is Pretty decent practice ammo in my opinion

 

[1Merlin]

<snip> Be interesting to see if a gunsmith could trim .010 the face and shoulder on a varmint barrel and still function. <snip>

Regarding the CZ barrels. Been there and did exactly that. Still no joy with the accuracy of the barrel. I think we did .012 and while it did engrave nicely it did nothing for the overall. We slugged the barrel and it was actually fairly loose. I've only tried it with one barrel.
Just my experience.

 

[JimSC]

I am on my third B14r,I have 2 CZ 457's also,bore scoping the fired chambers on all, the carbon ring on the B14 is much,much closer to the throat,the B14 also engraves the bullet a bunch.B14 seems more consistant lot to lot.
My CZ's just tickle the rifling with SK, sometimes not,probally why they can be picky. I confirmed this with different ammo by pulling barrel off and droping different rounds in chamber.
Would be interesting to see the carbon ring in the MTR chamber,I've measured spent casing from an MTR,diameter is exactly same as my 457 varmints.It has to be engraving more.
Be interesting to see if a gunsmith could trim .010 the face and shoulder on a varmint barrel and still function.

a couple of comments

My only 457 is a normally chambered Varmint and has just passed the 1000 round mark. I have not done any bedding or tweaking on the action screw torques yet which may explain it's sporadic nature. I plan on playing with torque screw settings this week and if does not settle in then I will be doing pillar bedding next week, A last resort would be doing a full bedding job or popping it into a chassis. It's a good barrel/action because when it shoots good it shoots very good, now if it will just settle in and become consistent from session to session. I want to avoid restocking it since I bought it to use in ARA factory competition

The Bergara's use a match chamber and normal non MTR chambered 457's do not. Even the bargain basement BMR has a match chamber and will engrave the bullet. 457's other than the MTR versions do not. In theory having the bullet into the rifling is a good thing, in practice I am still waiting to see. Just bought a BMR but not really I have not played with it much. I just got it back from a trip back to the mothership to get the bolt polished and the ejector replaced. 14 - 16 mph winds here the last couple of days

You can get rid of your carbon rings by using a .22 mop on a pistol length rod soaked in Boretech C4 inserted about a inch and a half into the chamber to just past the throat. I have started doing this after every range session for 5 minutes as a preventative but if you have a heavy buildup longer may be necessary. I have a pair of 452's that required overnight soaking to get rid of 20K + rounds worth of carbon initially. It seemed to help with unexplained flyers

 

[kojaone]

Been using C4 since it came out. Old GI bore cleaner, Hoppes # 9 and Wipeout products will work just as well with a good habit as Bore-tec,Bore tec is faster,but it will eat and weld your CZ mag well to the stock,it will also lift the skin off an B14r stock if left to long ,like underneath the action where it can sit,When I use C4, I place the rifle on it's side,small rag in port,downhill.

 

[MUP]

Been using C4 since it came out. Old GI bore cleaner, Hoppes # 9 and Wipeout products will work just as well with a good habit as Bore-tec,Bore tec is faster,but it will eat and weld your CZ mag well to the stock,it will also lift the skin off an B14r stock if left to long ,like underneath the action where it can sit,When I use C4, I place the rifle on it's side,small rag in port,downhill.

I do this as well with my regular cleaning regimen, but just keep the rifle vertical in the cleaning rack, also with a rag stuffed up in the mag well.

 

[46490]

Has anyone tried a tuner with different ammo types? I was wondering if tuning would help with the cheaper stuff and maybe cut down on the flyers.

 

[linebaugh]

Has anyone tried a tuner with different ammo types? I was wondering if tuning would help with the cheaper stuff and maybe cut down on the flyers.

Junk ammo is junk results. Might help some at 50 yards but I highly doubt you would see much at 100.
I made a tuner and played with it with mid range ammo and they for sure work. Problem is they are very velocity dependant and I shoot matches from freezing to 90+ degrees so I decided to give up on it. They will work if you spend the time with them. They are not going to turn ammo that shoots an inch at 50 into bugholes. Same could be said about trying to turn a cheap rifle into a match gun with a tuner.

 

[whatsupdoc]

Below are at 50 yards with my Anschutz 1808, CenterX shoots better then the more expensive Midas ammo. I also have a Vudoo with a Shilen barrel and the CenterX also shoots better than Midas even though both were different lots than the ammo used in the Anschutz.

Lately I have been shooting Norma Match 22 ammo in the Vudoo and the first lot I purchased has been superb. Groups at 100 have been .5 to .9 moa using a bipod and rear bag.

I bought a couple more bricks of the Norma ammo but of course it is not the same lot as the first so we will see how the new lots perform. At under $8 a box the Norma
Match 22 ammo that I believe is made by RWS is very good.

 

[JimSC]

Has anyone tried a tuner with different ammo types? I was wondering if tuning would help with the cheaper stuff and maybe cut down on the flyers.

I have a Harrels on my Kidd, as you can see 50 yard groups varied from .2's to .7s but most were sub MOA. Biggest issue I see with the cheaper ammo is lack of consistency with weight and base to ogive measurement and you just can't fix that. You can sort the stuff but why not just spend a little more and use your time for shooting not picking through ammo

 

[dgeesaman]

Below are at 50 yards with my Anschutz 1808, CenterX shoots better then the more expensive Midas ammo. I also have a Vudoo with a Shilen barrel and the CenterX also shoots better than Midas even though both were different lots than the ammo used in the Anschutz.

FYI CenterX and Midas+ are the same thing. They made the exact same way on the same production lines, the only difference is the Midas+ tested better on their final QC than the CenterX.

I find their differentiation between Center-X and Midas+ to be meaningless. Either the lot works for you or it doesn't. Today I did some indoor 50y testing and found my 'choice' lot of Center-X outperformed three lots of Midas+. The difference is worth a couple mm in a ten shot group at 50y. My choice lot of Center-X was obtained by testing at Marengo back in 2020 and on that day, it outperformed several lots of Midas+.

 

[whatsupdoc]

FYI CenterX and Midas+ are the same thing. They made the exact same way on the same production lines, the only difference is the Midas+ tested better on their final QC than the CenterX.

I find their differentiation between Center-X and Midas+ to be meaningless. Either the lot works for you or it doesn't. Today I did some indoor 50y testing and found my 'choice' lot of Center-X outperformed three lots of Midas+. The difference is worth a couple mm in a ten shot group at 50y. My choice lot of Center-X was obtained by testing at Marengo back in 2020 and on that day, it outperformed several lots of Midas+.

I know they are the same, except in all three rifles an Anschutz, CZ452 and a Vudoo CenterX has given better results than Midas with three different lots of each tested.

I wonder what test barrels Lapua is using to determine what box to put them in.

 

[dontpanic]

My MTR really likes Center-X and SK Pistol Match. It does not like the new flat nose Eley Match rifle or Tenex but it shoots the older round nose very well.

I shoot a lot of Eley Club(because I have tons) and it shoots it very well but not like Center-X or SK Pistol Match

 

[grauhanen]

I wonder what test barrels Lapua is using to determine what box to put them in

Considering that some lots of CX shoot better than some lots of M+ or X-Act across a number of rifles, there's reason to suspect that grading match ammo by shooting alone is not likely.

 

[VLNBYR]

I would argue that what really counts is consistency across the whole lot. Everybody has examples where a brick or two of a lot shot above it's pay grade across several rifles but will that happen throughout the whole lot of 6 or 8 cases.

 

[dgeesaman]

I would argue that what really counts is consistency across the whole lot. Everybody has examples where a brick or two of a lot shot above it's pay grade across several rifles but will that happen throughout the whole lot of 6 or 8 cases.

Indeed. I know a guy with two cases of lot tested ammo that has a couple of fliers in every brick. Just enough to make it worthless for competition.

I also know someone whose daughter missed the Olympic team because of a dropped shot in the prone section. (Nobody drops a shot in prone, especially not her, so it was a bad round). So yeah, consistency within the lot is paramount for competitors.

For casual shooters and competitors that kind of thing is a nuisance. We don’t lose out on the payoff of years of preparation when a bad round appears. But we all want the consistency.

 

[dgeesaman]

Considering that some lots of CX shoot better than some lots of M+ or X-Act across a number of rifles, there's reason to suspect that grading match ammo by shooting alone is not likely.

Assuming I was told correctly that they have several test rifles, I’m very curious if they grade based on the best, average, or worst live-fire result.

Considering that lot testing is prevalent, the argument could be made to grade based on the results of the rifle that shot an ammo lot best, and ignore the results of a rifle that shot the lot poorly.

 

[VLNBYR]

One of the beautiful things about ARA scoring is that the one bad round won't hurt you very much if everything else is spot on.

 

[grauhanen]

Assuming I was told correctly that they have several test rifles, I’m very curious if they grade based on the best, average, or worst live-fire result.

Considering that lot testing is prevalent, the argument could be made to grade based on the results of the rifle that shot an ammo lot best, and ignore the results of a rifle that shot the lot poorly.

I wouldn't be surprised if, and in fact would expect that, several test rifles are used when grading is done by shooting. But that doesn't mean that it's the only method of grading the various lots produced in a single production run.

Consider that there are some lots of X-Act (M+, too) that perform poorly not only on target but over the chronograph as well. At the same time, there are some lots of CX that outperform other CX lots and easily outperform poor lots of X-Act and M+ on target and over the chronograph.

If a match ammo maker such as Lapua relied on grading by testing only the above shouldn't happen.

In the case of Lapua, for example, a single production run of standard rifle ammo usually produces X-Act, Midas +, and Center X. The number of lots of X-Act can be expected to be less than that of M+, which in turn will usually have fewer lots than will CX.

Is the result of a production run entirely random in quality -- a very good lot followed completely by chance by a poor one etc. -- with no pattern to the quality of various lots that come off the production line?

 

[grauhanen]

Consider that match ammo makers have decades of experience with match ammo production. They also know where the best lots of components such as bullets and brass (they, too, are graded into lots) will come together in a production run. They may also know where in a production run the loading machines do their best work.

Is it conceivable that the match ammo makers may have some prior expectations of where the best (and not-the-best) lots will be produced? Is it possible that if the ammo makers use their expectations based on experience to help grade ammo?

Of course, expectations are not always borne out. There may be unanticipated factors that influence parts of the output of a production run that screw up what's identified as X-Act, M+, or CX.

Needless to say, the time-consuming process of testing by shooting may be used to confirm expectations, but obviously that method isn't foolproof, even if it's the only method of grading or not.