Lets talk .22LR match ammo (50-100yd)

[Tim Slater]

A couple of thoughts to add to the discussion:

1) Are Lapua (or RWS, or Eley for that matter) grading based on fixed criteria? I.e. a 12mm test group/average qualifies a batch as X-Act, and 14mm gives Midas? Or is it more flexible? I.e. the best batch (or batches sufficient to meet orders) becomes X-Act, then Midas, and then Center-X, regardless of the actual group size/average/

2) How do Lapua test at the factory, and does this differ from the test centres? Is the barrel clamped, or attached to the fixture at the action?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

From the conversation I had 7 years ago with the Mesa test center manager. each production run is set up and run to produce X-act this why very few lots were produced. production runs not meeting those standards were graded as Midas+ or Center-X.
currently there seems to be more X-act available then from years past so is it because of better quality control or less? I do know the physical dimensions are more consistent from length sorting and I have been doing this for a number of years. the current production excluding X-act and Midas+ since I have not bought any in a few years has better consistency in OAL in the past I would get as much as 5 different OAL with spreads of anywhere from 0.010-0.030+ the last lot of CX I got in December has over a 75% majority that will sort within 0.005 for example 500 rds. will have 350 rds. measuring 0.705 with another 100rds. measuring 0.695 and the last 50rds. with a range from 0.690-0.725
FYI the 0.010 difference has no significant effect on how it shoots.

Lee

 

[VLNBYR]

I would think testing would be a constant ongoing process and each run would get tested several times.

 

[grauhanen]

From the conversation I had 7 years ago with the Mesa test center manager. each production run is set up and run to produce X-act this why very few lots were produced. production runs not meeting those standards were graded as Midas+ or Center-X.

Indeed. As with Eley, the standard rifle match ammo begins with the possibility of being the top tier. Invariably more lots of lesser tier varieties are produced than X-Act or Tenex.
______________________

The question remains -- how can an ammo packaged as X-Act (or Tenex) perform poorly both on target and over the chronograph?

When that happens, or when CX (or Team) outperforms X-Act (or Tenex), it's difficult to understand how shooting-only methods of grading are solely responsible for determining what packaging is used.

 

[dgeesaman]

The question remains -- how can an ammo packaged as X-Act (or Tenex) perform poorly both on target and over the chronograph?

When that happens, or when CX (or Team) outperforms X-Act (or Tenex), it's difficult to understand how shooting-only methods of grading are solely responsible for determining what packaging is used.

This assumes that velocity spread is fully dependent on the ammo, not the barrel. I'm not sure that's the case.

Based on long range centerfire loading, it could depend on the combination of barrel, chamber, etc also. When we chase out precision into the decimal places we find cause/effect is much less clean and obvious.

If I get bored I may bring all 3 of my precision .22LRs to the range and shoot the same exact ammo while collecting Labradar data. It's not something I normally do but I could probably do it on a windy day when I'm trying to practice.

 

[Fuj]

Got some range time in this morning for one of the long guns
and took the Remmy 597 along for in between barrel coolings.
My CZ MTR is still in limbo The 597 shoots pretty good with
Mini Mags, so I grabbed 100 and a box of 50 of the Wolf Match
Extra. At 50 yards, the CCI's were grouping a good inch and a half
in the breeze and some nasty fliers. The Wolf shot great considering
I had a few failure to fires, and minimal power to cycle the bolt.
The Wolf was averaging one inch. I did manage a couple of nice
and round 3/4" groups. Fliers were way less then the CCI's. Will see
how this stuff does with the CZ and better scope. The scope on the
597 is just a plinker 6 power Burris prism.

 

[VLNBYR]

______________________

The question remains -- how can an ammo packaged as X-Act (or Tenex) perform poorly both on target and over the chronograph

This only becomes a problem if you are buying blind. I think the Lapua people assume that buyers are testing lots before they buy. Hard to feel sorry for those paying extra and getting less.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

This only becomes a problem if you are buying blind. I think the Lapua people assume that buyers are testing lots before they buy. Hard to feel sorry for those paying extra and getting less.

I agree if you don't test then hard to justify any complaints. remember Team lot#3216 I think it was, I am still thankful for you letting me know about it those many years ago. for me it shot great. when I couldn't find any replacement even in 10X I went to Lapua haven't looked back since

Lee

 

[wkdickinson]

Given all of the conjecture in this thread about how Lapua grades their ammo, I find it difficult to understand why they (Lapua) isn’t forthcoming about how they do it or what criteria they use. I hope they monitor these forums, so they know what their customer’s concerns are. Maybe, they don’t really know? If they did, and they could actually effect a change, wouldn’t they? Maybe 22LR ammo manufacturing is really more of a “black art” than a science - you do your best and hope it works, sometimes yes, sometimes, not so much?

 

[JimSC]

I tested 7 lots of black box Eley today doing 5 x 5's at 50 yards, free recoil, over flags with low wind and all had a couple of flyers. I was pretty disappointed in the results and won't be making any bulk purchases

 

[whatsupdoc]

Played with my Vudoo today, had the Labradar on while I broke in the
barrel.

Tried 2 lots of Norma Match 22 some CenterX and some Polar Biathlon.

It was very windy with the winds switching every direction but still managed to get some very good groups with the Norma and CenterX.

The best groups were with the one lot of Norma ammo, it also was the fastest and
had the lowest ES and the least expensive.

15 Shots
Stats - Average 1099.22 fps
Stats - Highest 1111.44 fps
Stats - Lowest 1090.26 fps
Stats - Ext. Spread 21.18 fps
Stats - Std. Dev 6.77 fps

 

[TRSR8]

Indeed. As with Eley, the standard rifle match ammo begins with the possibility of being the top tier. Invariably more lots of lesser tier varieties are produced than X-Act or Tenex.
______________________

The question remains -- how can an ammo packaged as X-Act (or Tenex) perform poorly both on target and over the chronograph?

When that happens, or when CX (or Team) outperforms X-Act (or Tenex), it's difficult to understand how shooting-only methods of grading are solely responsible for determining what packaging is used.

Let’s maybe remember the factory testing is done and graded with THEIR barrels, which may or likely not be similar to YOUR barrels.
It is a well known fact that barrel particulars drive the equation often. Even with top grade ammunition that shot mediocre in one setup may ver well become absolute killer in another rifle. Over the years there have been many examples of this with Lapua as well as ELEY with which, literally for years turned out Match that crushed anything in a red box. Fundamental to the entire equation, you simply have to test a broad spectrum in your individual gun…….near impossible these days.

 

[dgeesaman]

Given all of the conjecture in this thread about how Lapua grades their ammo, I find it difficult to understand why they (Lapua) isn’t forthcoming about how they do it or what criteria they use. I hope they monitor these forums, so they know what their customer’s concerns are. Maybe, they don’t really know? If they did, and they could actually effect a change, wouldn’t they? Maybe 22LR ammo manufacturing is really more of a “black art” than a science - you do your best and hope it works, sometimes yes, sometimes, not so much?

Why would they bother, Lapua ammo is constantly sold out.

 

[grauhanen]

This assumes that velocity spread is fully dependent on the ammo, not the barrel. I'm not sure that's the case.

This is a very good point.

Is there any information to indicate how much chronograph results are barrel-related? That would involve comparing the same lots over different barrels and comparing results. They are, of course, unlikely to be identical. Is it possible for different barrels that shoot well to be responsible for significantly different chronograph results such as ES and SD?

 

[grauhanen]

This only becomes a problem if you are buying blind. I think the Lapua people assume that buyers are testing lots before they buy. Hard to feel sorry for those paying extra and getting less.

I agree if you don't test then hard to justify any complaints.

I agree, too. When buying blind no one can be sure about what they get.

At the same time, not feeling sorry doesn't answer the question -- how can an ammo packaged as X-Act (or Tenex) perform poorly both on target and over the chronograph?

 

[grauhanen]

Let’s maybe remember the factory testing is done and graded with THEIR barrels, which may or likely not be similar to YOUR barrels.

Indeed. This returns to the unanswered question referred to above.

 

[VLNBYR]

I agree, too. When buying blind no one can be sure about what they get.

At the same time, not feeling sorry doesn't answer the question -- how can an ammo packaged as X-Act (or Tenex) perform poorly both on target and over the chronograph?

Answer...It's rimfire, things vary. The Midas lot I shot last year, 3rd in ARA National A-line, 3 targets 2500, won a bunch of matches, I'll bet I gave some to a dozen different friends and not one of them liked it.

 

[VLNBYR]

Every one of these questions can be answered by looking at the holes in the paper shot by YOUR RIFLE. What happened at the ammo factory, what your friend did, what somebody on a forum did just doesn't matter.

 

[Fuj]

Every one of these questions can be answered by looking at the holes in the paper shot by YOUR RIFLE. What happened at the ammo factory, what your friend did, what somebody on a forum did just doesn't matter.

Like buying a pair boots. You have to keep trying them on until
they fit, then hope their easy to break in, and last 40 years or more.

Sometimes I miss the days when a 37 cent box of goldens got it
done. Looks like we all got anal.....LOL

Just for the hell of it....What is the absolute cheapest rimfire ammo
out there ??

 

[TRSR8]

Every one of these questions can be answered by looking at the holes in the paper shot by YOUR RIFLE. What happened at the ammo factory, what your friend did, what somebody on a forum did just doesn't matter.

The single essential reason there is zero substitute for testing in your gun…..a practical impossibility these days for most.