Learning at the Whidden Gunworks Test Range

[Ccrider]

We've maybe seen 2-3 guns reliably average this good.

Thanks for sharing your experience based information on these various issues. I hope you continue to do so in the futures.

That’s 2-3 guns out of how many tested?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

More importantly is when you overlay 4 or 5 - 10 shot groups what then is the total group size. Olympic standard was a 40 shot group < or = to 14mm at 50 meters

This is what I look for in a lot. I don't shoot Olympic style only RFBR ARA to be more correct. only 25 shots but this was not in a tunnel it was shot outside. 0.084 +.223 = 0.307
Five 5-shot groups one after another not an overlay but a true average group add in the rifle was moved to each bull to shoot each group not stationary in a fixture.

Lee

 

[Williwaw]

More importantly is when you overlay 4 or 5 - 10 shot groups what then is the total group size. Olympic standard was a 40 shot group < or = to 14mm at 50 meters

Could you please put a little more flesh on this, ie. is the 14mm ctc or outside. And by Olympic standard do you mean rifles needed to achieve this standard in order to have a chance to win an event. What event? And under what conditions would the test groups have been shot ...indoors?from a bench?in a fixture.

I am not challenging the veracity of your info ... I just really want to understand the context. Thanks.

 

[Tim Slater]

Could you please put a little more flesh on this, ie. is the 14mm ctc or outside. And by Olympic standard do you mean rifles needed to achieve this standard in order to have a chance to win an event. What event? And under what conditions would the test groups have been shot ...indoors?from a bench?in a fixture.

I am not challenging the veracity of your info ... I just really want to understand the context. Thanks.

In ISSF/Olympic circles test groups are normally reported as edge to edge, rather than c-to-c.

There are currently two olympic .22 rifle events: Men's 3Position and Women's 3Position. Both are shot at 50 metres, 10.4mm 10-ring, scored to 0.1 points in finals. The World Championships includes men's and women's 60 shot prone. Men's prone was an Olympic even until after the 2016 Rio games. Up to London 2012 the Olympic ptone record was 600/600 with 51Xs.

AFAIK factory test centres are indoors, and rifles are clamped by the action. Local dealers and clubs may have their own test facilities, which may indoors or outdoors, using all sorts of rigs to hold the rifle.

 

[grauhanen]

So here’s question about acceptable 10 shot group size at 100 yds you may be able to shed light on given the accumulated data from your testing.

Can you give us your opinion, based on your testing, what is a reasonably acceptable 10 shot group size at 100 yds for a rifle/ammo combo? And even, better, can you give us two answers, one for custom and one for factory.
What I’m looking for is some general guidance from your testing results to help us testing at home evaluate what we should be aiming for in terms of 10 shot group size at 100 yds

Shooting consistently good results outdoors at 100 yards is challenging. Even in the calmest of conditions there are times that suggest that the ammo is less consistent than desired.

In any case, with whiddengunworks standard of four ten shot groups in mind, below are the eight best 100 yard four ten-shot group targets I was able to shoot last fall with my best factory rifle, an Anschutz.

(I usually shoot ten groups with the same ammo, four on one target, three on two others. If conditions and time allows I shoot another ten groups, often with another lot.)

Along with the best shown below are others with the same rifle that aren't nearly equal. When shooting at longer distances, there often are a lot of discouraging results accompanying the few that might have more shine.

The first three from two September days. The next four are from three days in October. The last target is from November 2024.

The 32 group average is a little over .800" center-to-center. The smallest groups are in the .5s and .6s, the largest in the .9s. The ammo came from six lots of Midas.

 

[68Hoyt]

TRSR8,
Eck ?

Dave Way ,
My metric to imperial is not a mental smooth transition , I basically think imperial , 6mm =.243 etc , known equivalents
So ,,,,, thank you

Edit :
I was typing while others answered , about c to c and edge to edge
Thanks

 

[TRSR8]

TRSR8,
Eck ?

Dave Way ,
My metric to imperial is not a mental smooth transition , I basically think imperial , 6mm =.243 etc , known equivalents
So ,,,,, thank you

Edit :
I was typing while others answered , about c to c and edge to edge
Thanks

Eck? Seriously?? Are you, perhaps, new to the Galaxy?
Gordon Eck, for quite a few years, until somewhat recently, built probably as many national championship and record holding rifles as anybody alive. After their introduction he pretty much built exclusively on 2500’s both heavy and IR sporter rifles.

 

[68Hoyt]

I don’t shoot bench rest , and it’s not done or popular ,local /close to me , I do however like to shoot and like accurate rifles and learning /tinkering , mild gunsmithing
My Sincerest apologies for not putting two and two together when seeing the last name Eck and immediately thinking Gordon Eck , God forbid I should have anything else on my mind and not be as perfect as you are
This is great , people love when some ask a question and someone else jumps on them instead of offering a simple reply with a nice simple answer , you fit the typical NY stereotype , although I’ve done business with people in New York they must’ve been outside the city and they’re actually quite nice you make me rethink I don’t like New York anymore
Anyway ,I will try not to disturb you with any more questions or take up any of your time and I would your reciprocation

 

[John1945]

I don’t shoot bench rest , and it’s not done or popular ,local /close to me , I do however like to shoot and like accurate rifles and learning /tinkering , mild gunsmithing
My Sincerest apologies for not putting two and two together when seeing the last name Eck and immediately thinking Gordon Eck , God forbid I should have anything else on my mind and not be as perfect as you are
This is great , people love when some ask a question and someone else jumps on them instead of offering a simple reply with a nice simple answer , you fit the typical NY stereotype , although I’ve done business with people in New York they must’ve been outside the city and they’re actually quite nice you make me rethink I don’t like New York anymore
Anyway ,I will try not to disturb you with any more questions or take up any of your time and I would your reciprocation

Many more times than not people ask questions because they are lazy to do just a minimal search first. Spoon feeding comes to mind. And I'm not from NY, but northern Jersey just out of the city. I'm talking generality here.

 

[TRSR8]

I don’t shoot bench rest , and it’s not done or popular ,local /close to me , I do however like to shoot and like accurate rifles and learning /tinkering , mild gunsmithing
My Sincerest apologies for not putting two and two together when seeing the last name Eck and immediately thinking Gordon Eck , God forbid I should have anything else on my mind and not be as perfect as you are
This is great , people love when some ask a question and someone else jumps on them instead of offering a simple reply with a nice simple answer , you fit the typical NY stereotype , although I’ve done business with people in New York they must’ve been outside the city and they’re actually quite nice you make me rethink I don’t like New York anymore
Anyway ,I will try not to disturb you with any more questions or take up any of your time and I would your reciprocation

 

[68Hoyt]

Hey John mind your business and Trar8
This is simple , I look at the post , E c k , I’m not perfect , what is Eck , I made a mistake , just say , Gordon Eck , don’t be Jerk , I try to be helpful , and not be an a jerk on the forums

 

[Mg73]

More importantly is when you overlay 4 or 5 - 10 shot groups what then is the total group size. Olympic standard was a 40 shot group < or = to 14mm at 50 meters

This is an interesting point. One could posit that overlaying five 10 shot groups allows you to just add up the total number of shots for one big beautiful group size. And I think this process probably does give a reasonable result. One caveat to think about: when you shoot all your shots at one bullseye, there are a certain number of minute technique variables between each shot introduced by things like slight changes in grip, trigger pull, gun movement in the rest, etc. When you add in the additional degree of slight technique variations by moving to a different bullseye after every 5 shots the results can be affected. One would expect that more variation should equal a wider total group. The question is if the effect of added variation by shooting multiple bulls and its effect on total group size is significant or even measurable. I don’t know the answer to that. Does anyone have any data on that?

I do know that shooting multiple targets makes scoring easier because you don’t have the headache of trying to evaluate overlapping holes.

 

[JMA]

TRSR8,
Eck ?

Dave Way ,
My metric to imperial is not a mental smooth transition , I basically think imperial , 6mm =.243 etc , known equivalents
So ,,,,, thank you

Edit :
I was typing while others answered , about c to c and edge to edge
Thanks

6mm = .236 inch
6mm is bore diameter
,243 is groove diameter

 

[JMA]

Would using a tuner be able to compensate for velocity variations at 100 yards ?

 

[Ranger188]

Would using a tuner be able to compensate for velocity variations at 100 yards ?

No.
For that to work, you'd have to know that a particular round was slower or faster
before you fired it. Then know what way to adjust the tuner to compensate for
the difference in where your aiming.
If you knew that, would be easier to just hold for it.
That's why it's important to find the best ammo that works in your rifle.
Low ES

 

[Williwaw]

Would using a tuner be able to compensate for velocity variations at 100 yards ?

Obviously not everyone is of the PC school of thought.

Dr. Kolbe indicated full PC at 100 was a bit of a stretch for the barrels he was testing at 50 yards. Remember though that the benefit/compensation achieved with a 50 yard tune is still in the system at greater distances. Partial positive compensation if you like.

 

[TRSR8]

Hey John mind your business and Trar8
This is simple , I look at the post , E c k , I’m not perfect , what is Eck , I made a mistake , just say , Gordon Eck , don’t be Jerk , I try to be helpful , and not be an a jerk on the forums

Strong advice from a guy that insulted an entire state.
Let’s, maybe, take it down a notch.

 

[68Hoyt]

My last comment on this whole subject

and I wish a “MODERATOR” would delete all of this junk and let it go back on track to the subject Whidden started and get this thread back on track
1. If I would not have been curious as to what E c k meant and asked ,this would not have happened
2. If you would have said Gordon Eck, this would probably not have happened
3. If you had come back and just said hey Gordon Eck the gunsmith, this ,,,,,,,,probably would not have happened
4.if I had not had a whisky or two before one of the responses I may not have typed what I typed
5. If I had done what I usually do and just let people be what people be on the internet , and let you make your jerk of a comment and not say anything this would not be happening ,,,,,but I was in a mood to not put up with people at that particular moment and felt the need to respond ,,,,, people feel strong , empowered , behind a keyboard
So ,,,,,, with that , I will make a sincere, apology to the people of NY , whom I have grouped into one group because of the actions of one individual , again my apologies to NY as I do know , have met and dealt with some very nice people from there
Now without further ado , let us please get this thread back on track and try to learn something
I would also like to apologize to Whidden gun works for the slight derail

 

[John1945]

My last comment on this whole subject

and I wish a “MODERATOR” would delete all of this junk and let it go back on track to the subject Whidden started and get this thread back on track
1. If I would not have been curious as to what E c k meant and asked ,this would not have happened
2. If you would have said Gordon Eck, this would probably not have happened
3. If you had come back and just said hey Gordon Eck the gunsmith, this ,,,,,,,,probably would not have happened
4.if I had not had a whisky or two before one of the responses I may not have typed what I typed
5. If I had done what I usually do and just let people be what people be on the internet , and let you make your jerk of a comment and not say anything this would not be happening ,,,,,but I was in a mood to not put up with people at that particular moment and felt the need to respond ,,,,, people feel strong , empowered , behind a keyboard
So ,,,,,, with that , I will make a sincere, apology to the people of NY , whom I have grouped into one group because of the actions of one individual , again my apologies to NY as I do know , have met and dealt with some very nice people from there
Now without further ado , let us please get this thread back on track and try to learn something
I would also like to apologize to Whidden gun works for the slight derail

I remember those days but my preference was Scotch. Got me on trouble more than once. We're good. Nice post. I too could have done better.

 

[68Hoyt]

Thanks John