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Learning at the Whidden Gunworks Test Range

CharlieNC said:
That would only prove the grading process is worthless from a commercial prospective. I've read several posters say a good lot is a good lot and will shoot well in any rifle (relatively). Others have your perspective that lots are rifle specific. I don't know, but hopefully the extensive trials at a test center can help answer.
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The answer to your problem is very simple....only buy CenterX
 
One other piece of info I meant to add- So far, we haven't seen any of the really big barrel contours (like 1.200" straight) shoot super tight groups. I know PRS guys like them for balance and such, and we've tested a handful but not a huge number. This isn't tuner related because we've shot them with and without tuners. It could be just a run of luck, but nobody's averaged a 12.something with a big fat barrel.

Ranger 188, 1. I don't know. 2. We've set up chronos but there's surprisingly little relation between good chrono numbers and good accuracy.

SteveOak I won't be posting the full data, sorry.

Jeff Porter, target description that someone posted is correct.

CharlieNC, I think they're doing their best to grade it, but in the end their rifles are not my rifle or your rifle.

Each company shoots the ammo in like 5-6 test rifles for grading. Personally, I think their process has some value, but it's not YOUR rifle doing the grading. That's why we have test centers is to grade the ammo in YOUR rifle.

If you're not going to test anything at all, then you will likely get the best accuracy by buying the most expensive stuff. At least someone has graded it somehow.

On the other hand, I've seen turd lots of the most expensive ammos from all manufacturers. How they were graded highly is beyond me, but I don't think there's any conspiracy behind it. Those rifles were just different...

I know I may sound like the used car salesman because I'm the guy with the test center, but there's no replacement for testing in your own guns. We often see accuracy differences of 40% between best and worst lots in any given gun. You can rebarrel your gun or whatever and not get a 40% improvement.
 
whiddengunworks said:
We had the opportunity to shoot an interesting test recently on our range. We shot 54 lots of ammunition through a rather accurate rifle. Each lot was fired for just one 10 round group, so the data from each lot is pretty limited. The groups were measured at both 50M and 100M. I'm comparing group sizes using outside to outside measurements when I give the comparisons below.

At 50M, Midas was the most accurate. We shot 6 lots of this. It was 5% better than Tenex, and we tested 21 lots of Tenex. Next in line were Lapua Long Range (6 lots) then Center X (8 lots) These ranked pretty close to each other and not far behind Tenex. Tenex pistol was last place and about 20% behind these.

At 100M things were different. Tenex was best by 3.4% over Center X. Midas was about 10% behind Center X, and Long Range 3% behind that. Tenex Pistol was last by about 8% more.

We shot one lot of Lapua Pistol King and it perfromed well especially at 50M. I don't feel that one lot is enough data to include in the above results. We've sold Lapua Biathlon in the last few months and reports from shooters have been positive on that but it wasn't tested here.

Turning to another topic, we've really seen that firing pin springs are important. If you're groups are consistently taller than they are wide by 30% or more, drop a new spring in there. I'll be doing this yearly. It's certainly cheap in the scheme of things.

Cleaning still matters a lot as well. After watching our results, I've settled on a pretty traditional cleaning method. Wet patch (we use Shooter's Choice but really think most any solvent is fine), brush with a wet bronze brush about 6 strokes (a stroke is all the way back and forth) and then wet patch until clean. Good barrels will shoot well again after 5 rounds or less. While I do have success with centerfire rifles and abrasive bore cleaners, the rimfire guns don't seem to be the right place for them. I reserve the right to change my mind as I learn...

I'm beginning to gather evidence that chambers may matter less than we like to think. We certainly don't see evidence that having a gun "chambered for Eley" or "chambered for Lapua" holds any water at all. We've seen excellent results with very tight match chambers and also match chambers that are on the larger end (larger than Winchester 52D). As many of you know, there are many many "match" chambers compiled onto one info sheet by PTG. When I refer to "match", I'm thinking of most of the bolt gun chambers. I exclude anythign as large as the Bentz semi auto chambers in my mind. It seems when we get to the Bentz chambers things go backwards on accuracy, but our data here is limited.

It would be awesome if Shane could come give us the perspective from the Lapua test centers as well. Those guys also do excellent work and we have a great relationship with them.

I'll do my best to answer your questions.
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John,

Is the lot of Pistol King you tested the same one you have in stock? IMO Pistol king is the most under rated Lapua offering, I have had great results with it.

Lee
 
whiddengunworks said:
One other piece of info I meant to add- So far, we haven't seen any of the really big barrel contours (like 1.200" straight) shoot super tight groups. I know PRS guys like them for balance and such, and we've tested a handful but not a huge number. This isn't tuner related because we've shot them with and without tuners. It could be just a run of luck, but nobody's averaged a 12.something with a big fat barrel.
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This is the most interesting part of this discussion to me. Maybe it’s because my background shooting Olympic small bore style rifles or maybe it’s some other subconscious bias but from my relatively small sample size testing custom rimfire rifles over the last 20+ years I have a similar belief, barrel countour plays a role in rimfire accuracy more so than centerfire.

John, have you seen a specific contour or general countour range that shoots better than most. I have always been a fan of a fairly fast taper (within 2-3” from the breech to somewhere around 0.850”-0.950” straight to the muzzle.

Very interesting stuff, thank you for taking the time to post it.
 
Thoughts...Next time you're filling up the vehicle pump the most expensive grade. Do you think it will run better. If it does run better do you think you could tell.
Testing 15 lots of ammo....Do you think that lot 15 gets the same chance to shine as lot 1.
You test lot 6 and it kills it with a 10mm group. You repeat and get a 13mm group. Which group is the real #6.
Shooters aren't happy unless their results are concrete and certain. Most shooters are unhappy.
 
VLNBYR said:
Thoughts...Next time you're filling up the vehicle pump the most expensive grade. Do you think it will run better. If it does run better do you think you could tell.
Testing 15 lots of ammo....Do you think that lot 15 gets the same chance to shine as lot 1.
You test lot 6 and it kills it with a 10mm group. You repeat and get a 13mm group. Which group is the real #6.
Shooters aren't happy unless their results are concrete and certain. Most shooters are unhappy.
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Give me a lot that will shoot 13mm for 5+ groups over one that has 9mm,12mm IMO what most don't understand is consistency is what produces the better scores.

Lee
 
CharlieNC said:
Thank you John, your update confirms my preconceived notions. Have you reported the turd lots back to the manufacturer to enable them to investigate shortcomings?
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To this point, how does the other test center handle their results? I.e., are they feeding back what they find to the manufacturers?
 
I would ask re your cleaning routine. How often do you clean barrels? Between groups or after a certain # of rounds have gone through it or ?
 
tominboise said:
I would ask re your cleaning routine. How often do you clean barrels? Between groups or after a certain # of rounds have gone through it or ?
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Things learned in the test tunnel

I thought a few of you may be interested in a few things we've learned so far in the test tunnel. After cleaning or when changing ammo it doesn't take many shots for the guns to settle down. Like 5 or less for just about every barrel. Most often like 2-3. Generally we're finding that...
forum.accurateshooter.com
 
Lee the Pistol King I tested was the lot we have in stock.

Jbell we haven't seen a contour that's better than others, only observed that the big ones generally seem a little worse.

VLNBYR, do you get the same mileage on every tank of gas?

CharlieNC, no those turd lots were mostly stuff I bought secondhand or on my own dime before we started selling ammo.

tominboise we clean after 190 rounds as this fits our testing protocol well. We'll shoot another 150 or so after that. So far we haven't seen a rifle that started clean and would foul up in 190 rounds. If this happened very often, then the last ammo tested would never be selected as good. We do see the last lots in the line selected as good.
 
whiddengunworks said:
Lee the Pistol King I tested was the lot we have in stock.

Jbell we haven't seen a contour that's better than others, only observed that the big ones generally seem a little worse.

VLNBYR, do you get the same mileage on every tank of gas?

CharlieNC, no those turd lots were mostly stuff I bought secondhand or on my own dime before we started selling ammo.

tominboise we clean after 190 rounds as this fits our testing protocol well. We'll shoot another 150 or so after that. So far we haven't seen a rifle that started clean and would foul up in 190 rounds. If this happened very often, then the last ammo tested would never be selected as good. We do see the last lots in the line selected as good.
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I guess I should have PM you it seems to be all gone now:(

Lee
 
John, nice update.
Now for the $64000 question, RFBR shooters I know that shoot Tenex will state with extensive lot testing it will run at or very close to Midas but it remains in the distinct minority. In your facility, have you seen anything recently that would suggest “ on average” ELEY is closing the gap relative to Lapua? Any changes by them you are aware of?
 
TRSR8 You have a good question. We have only a couple of rifles where we've tested both Tenex and Midas (this is our first shipment of fresh Midas). One rifle is the report that started this thread.

The second rifle chose a lot of Center X over the Midas. The CX average of 4-10 shot groups was 14.5mm. The best Tenex lot was 13.7mm. The Midas was mostly in the 17mm neighborhood.

I don't think we've had any misfires with Tenex from 2024 production that weren't a gross problem with the gun.
 
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