Lapua does not recommend re-annealing?

[DngBat7]

Said perfectly. Feel the same

Never thought about brass cost and time involved. I enjoy the crap out of every aspect it takes to make accurate ammo from turning necks with the Benchsource to sitting in front of the TV with the AMP.. The cost of making it enjoyable for me is something i have to accept or i can find another hobby. Shooting SR & LR BR will never be a $ making option for me. But the enjoyment of the company i keep and the time & money involved and every now and then shooting good is priceless to me.

Regards
Rick

 

[BoydAllen]

I never said that...... but you do need to get the brass up to that temperature range locally . Now, how do you control the affect considering that:

Brass is a very good conductor of heat, the amount of residual cold work lowers the temperature at which annealing occurs, the case body has upwards of 60% residual cold work, and you have no metallurgical analysis capability?

We used to stand cases in water to control the heat from reaching the body. After they got to a “dull red heat” in a darkened room we’d tip them over. To stop the annealing process cold. Maybe the last step wasn’t needed?

Now we have fancy machines and grandiose claims, but none repeat the old process. At least from what I know.

While the old process produced annealed brass that was safe to fire, and dealt with the neck cracking issue, IMO and that of others it produces case necks that are too soft for best accuracy in many situations. We have become a lot more sophisticated about annealing, and we are generally not wanting fully softened necks. Back in the day, I followed the old directions to the letter, and when I shot the brass, the accuracy was worse than before annealing. The necks were too soft. Some powders need more bullet pull than others in order to produce the best accuracy. I have interviewed winning thousand yard shooters that do and do not anneal, based on their own testing with their particular caliber and load components. Their winning proves them both right. Some time back a friend needed to deal with inconsistency of shoulder bump with the same die settings. This was for ammo to be fed from magazines, for hunting. Soft necks would not have been suitable. We were able to set up a two torch timed process rotary annealing machine so that shoulder bumps were a lot more uniform while not over softening case necks. IMO there is little textbook info on this sort of partial annealing, which is what most who anneal for accuracy are doing.

 

[johara1]

It is a simple thing, they don't want you to get a 100+ firings out of your brass.... As hard as it is to make GOOD Dasher that is 1.550 long and very uniform in capacity, it is more than worth it. Plus it shoots better....... jim

 

[rr2030]

The tire guys have a racket going.

Thats what I was pointing out. Absolutely zero benefit on passenger and light truck tires. Just another wallet flush. Maybe we need another thread on wallet flushes and oil coated low restriction air filters.

 

[johara1]

While the old process produced annealed brass that was safe to fire, and dealt with the neck cracking issue, IMO and that of others it produces case necks that are too soft for best accuracy in many situations. We have become a lot more sophisticated about annealing, and we are generally not wanting fully softened necks. Back in the day, I followed the old directions to the letter, and when I shot the brass, the accuracy was worse than before annealing. The necks were too soft. Some powders need more bullet pull than others in order to produce the best accuracy. I have interviewed winning thousand yard shooters that do and do not anneal, based on their own testing with their particular caliber and load components. Their winning proves them both right. Some time back a friend needed to deal with inconsistency of shoulder bump with the same die settings. This was for ammo to be fed from magazines, for hunting. Soft necks would not have been suitable. We were able to set up a two torch timed process rotary annealing machine so that shoulder bumps were a lot more uniform while not over softening case necks. IMO there is little textbook info on this sort of partial annealing, which is what most who anneal for accuracy are doing.

Boyd, I never used two torches, it is hard enough to set one the same every time, never had a soft condition either. I always check the spring back. Dwell time on sizing means more than anything, but annealing helps ..... jim

 

[Delfuego]

Brand new Lapua brass comes to you annealed. Why would they that?

 

[DngBat7]

I’ll post this again. I think it went un-noticed. This is a screen shot from a actual metallurgy website. Not a shooting website or the opinion of a shooter. They say annealing is a real thing and it does in fact work. The bigger question is if it is being done correctly by the shooting crowd

 

[Rsadams]

There may be many reasons alot probably legal , but the first thing I think of is , don't make our products last longer , just buy more when they get old... Makes good business sense....

 

[johara1]

Brand new Lapua brass comes to you annealed. Why would they that?

It isn't annealed the same lot to lot, When you fire form and get 90% failures and you anneal some and you have no failures .... is why. Then anneal every firing for uniformity and longevity ..... jim

 

[BoydAllen]

I’ll post this again. I think it went un-noticed. This is a screen shot from a actual metallurgy website. Not a shooting website or the opinion of a shooter. They say annealing is a real thing and it does in fact work. The bigger question is if it is being done correctly by the shooting crowd

I don't think that there has been any question as to whether annealing "works" in the sense of being a real thing, but the definition that metallurgists use is different than what the typical shooter is doing or wants, and that is the source of some confusion. No one that I know of wants his case necks to be fully annealed in the sense that metallurgists use the word. We are doing something different and have appropriated that word to describe what is being done, even though it it not technically correct. We do not need to go to manuals for this, we need to look at targets, chronographs, and brass life.

 

[DngBat7]

I know the people in this thread are much more experienced than me. But some say annealing works, some say it doesn’t. Some say turning makes a difference, some say it does nothing. Some say bullet pointing makes a difference, some say it’s a waste. I like to do all the processes. Even if 3 out of 4 work. I bet my loads are more accurate than not

 

[dolek]

Anybody know a metallurgist? This should be a very simple answer.

I thought everyone that anneals is ?????

 

[dolek]

I think my initial question my be the start of World War III.. Did not realize this was such a hot button topic

That's what I stated way back at post # 5 . Brings out the folks that like to argue and the folks that think they know it.

 

[DngBat7]

That's what I stated way back at post # 5 . Brings out the folks that like to argue and the folks that think they know it.

Hehehe

 

[dolek]

Brand new Lapua brass comes to you annealed. Why would they that?

Maybe it only needs to be done once,PROPERLY.

 

[Clancy]

I know the people in this thread are much more experienced than me. But some say annealing works, some say it doesn’t. Some say turning makes a difference, some say it does nothing. Some say bullet pointing makes a difference, some say it’s a waste. I like to do all the processes. Even if 3 out of 4 work. I bet my loads are more accurate than not

Very wise....

I just did my 100 pieces of brass for a new 6.5x47. I cleaned the flash holes with a drill bit, cleaned up the necks, lightly chamfered and deburred, and I’ll trim and anneal after the second firing.

I clean primer pockets and anneal every other firing.

I’ve got friends that don’t do any of this, and though I’m not sure which of these things allows me to outshoot them, I’m not going to change.

I’ve got a friend that has made a habit of doing all these same things with a Bergara Pro, and he shoots as well and sometimes better than I do.

I’ll always maintain that case prep is the key.

 

[rr2030]

That's what I stated way back at post # 5 . Brings out the folks that like to argue and the folks that think they know it.

Hey, you left out those of us that are here trying to decipher the opinions, techniques, results and experiences of those that may or may not anneal. I'm not here to argue, but I guess in a way I am arguing with you the point that many of us, myself included are not, arguing.

 

[DngBat7]

Hey, you left out those of us that are here trying to decipher the opinions, techniques, results and experiences of those that may or may not anneal. I'm not here to argue, but I guess in a way I am arguing with you the point that many of us, myself included are not arguing.

I just hope nobody in this thread has the codes to the secondary football.

 

[TC260]

but the definition that metallurgists use is different than what the typical shooter is doing or wants, and that is the source of some confusion. No one that I know of wants his case necks to be fully annealed in the sense that metallurgists use the word. We are doing something different and have appropriated that word to describe what is being done, even though it it not technically correct.

I agree about the confusion. IMO, it's shooters using improper terminology that keeps people confused. One of the materials books I had in school separates them as partial annealing or process annealing and full annealing. Personally I think "recovery annealing" is the best term, because that describes the phase of annealing it's related to.

FWIW, recovery annealing is clearly described in that old paper rifle woman has posted a few times. The information is out there, it's just not often packaged up in a way that's easy to read.

 

[PatMiles]

Never thought about brass cost and time involved. I enjoy the crap out of every aspect it takes to make accurate ammo from turning necks with the Benchrite to sitting in front of the TV with the AMP.. The cost of making it enjoyable for me is something i have to accept or i can find another hobby. Shooting SR & LR BR will never be a $ making option for me. But the enjoyment of the company i keep and the time & money involved and every now and then shooting good is priceless to me.

Regards
Rick

Dilly dilly!