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Just a 223 rant...

These 223 discussions end up with the same arguments and rants every time they are posted. You've got one group who are convinced that the 223 is an acceptable cartridge for deer and the other camp that insist that it's unethical; eventually the thread evolves into a flame throwing contest. The facts, arguments and points of view are repeated at nauseum until tempers flare to the extent where the thread is closed.

If a hunter is willing to accept the fact that limitations are required when using a marginal cartridge then it can be used. If you limit distance and only take shots where broadside opportunities are presented, fine. The million dollar question is why use a marginal cartridge when there are so many others available on the market that produce better penetration and killing power.

Larger calibers such as a 6.5 284 or a 7x57 will allow you to take a frontal shot or a shoulder shot. They have the capability to cut through bone, penetrate and reach the vitals when a less than perfect shot presents itself.
There is no replacement for a well placed shot. A gut shot deer hit with a 300 mag is going to run just as far as a deer gut shot with a 223. Poor marksmanship cannot be compensated for. A larger caliber does however increase killing capacity when a broadside shot is not presented.

The biggest problem we have in the hunting community are the weekend warriors; they dust off rifles once a year and are satisfied if they manage to hit a paper target at fifty yards. The notion of spending a few weekends fine tuning your shooting skills and fine tuning your scope and rifle simply have no place in their busy lives. They are the same people who don't look for blood or evidence of a hit when the deer runs off instead of dropping at their feet. Like anything else in life, the time spent investing in practice and preparation usually makes the difference in the outcome.

For me, I'll stick with one of my 7x57's when hunting deer. It's proven itself time and again and confidence in what you are doing often goes a long way to achieving success.
 
Here's my experiences with Pennsy but probably applies to a lot of states' deer hunters. After being cleaned and put away last year, pull the gun out of the closet the day after Thanksgiving (the following Monday is first day of firearms season), fondle it while dreaming of a big buck walking by around daybreak or no later than 8:00 a.m, call a couple buddies to go sight in at the range or on the farm, grab a couple boxes of different brands and bullet weights, set up pie plates at 50 and 100 yards. Go through both both boxes of ammo quick enough to fry bacon on the barrel, all the while adjusting the scope after every shot. Finally run out of ammo or stop with five left saying that's good enough for a deer. Flame on!
I have seen that here in ky also. And I get told that different types of ammo can't make that much of a difference. And there is almost always the ones trying to tell me that my 243 is no where near big enough. Funny this year I used a 65g sgk in a 223 with good results!!
 
I don't do "shoulder" shots. Aim for the double lunger/liver. My brother lost and later found two shoulder shots with a 200 grain SST. The next two were lung shots, 50 yard run maximum both of them. My opinion, shooting a shoulder shot on a white tail with a .223 isn't a good practice. Why would you want to try and punch through that bone to get to the vitals?
I agree. If you shoot just in front or rear of the shoulder they will go down. I would say that easily the last 12or more deer I have shot all have dropped right there. All have been with a 243 or this years 223. I believe it's not so much how big a caliber but it's about using the right bullet with proper shot placement. The guys using there 30-06s to 300rums do not kill as many as I do with my little calibers
 
Yeah, it's time to start another thread on long range hunting, Sunday hunting or hunting with semi-autos. That should increase the temperature. :rolleyes::D:D:D:eek:
Don't forget about our primitive archery equipment:eek: How can one possibly kill a big game animal with an arrow traveling 200 feet per second:D
 
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Somehow, I wish there could be some sort of qualification to prove someone is competent with a rifle and not an idiot, before a hunting license was issued.
Changed my mind on this.
As landowners, we should set our on standards as to who hunts on our property. I have done this somewhat, for a number of years.
I don't own 200 acres, but to hunt on my property, someone must first show me their NRA membership card.
To allow the government to be involved in this, would be a mistake. They're involved in our lives too much already
 
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As a land owner, my biggest concern would be the liability issue. Whether the hunter is proficient, an NRA member, or even possesses a drivers license, means little to me.
 
It is time for this thread to die. We all know what opinions are like and I doubt anyone is thinking of changing their mind.

Actually, I was thinking I should give all my money to some alcoholic deadbeat and then go around with that poor stuck at the bottom working class chip on my shoulder where I hate anyone that has accomplished anything in life and am always looking for a free ride. The wife and kids will have to just get over it.....wait, that would mean I cant shoot anymore because of the rising costs of components...yeah, Okay, never mind.
 
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ANOTHER MAG SHOOTER !!!!!!:D:D:D

Actually I have killed somewhere close to 45 deer in the last 3 years with the .223/5.56. Most of that was with permits and I manage a hunting plantation, so I have many opportunities. That doesn't include past history of kills with the .22 lr, .22 hornet, and .22 mag.

Normally I use a .243 AI, but I am in the process of switching to a 6.5 Creedmoor. Actually I never owned a magnum and should be a proponent of the .223/5.56.

So, in the grand scheme of things; none of this thread matters. I will keep doing what I do and to each his own. I am just saying that I have seen it fail when something just a little more capable would have carried the mail.

And that one of my biggest mistakes was posting to this thread in the first place.
 
Actually I have killed somewhere close to 45 deer in the last 3 years with the .223/5.56. Most of that was with permits and I manage a hunting plantation, so I have many opportunities. That doesn't include past history of kills with the .22 lr, .22 hornet, and .22 mag.

Normally I use a .243 AI, but I am in the process of switching to a 6.5 Creedmoor. Actually I never owned a magnum and should be a proponent of the .223/5.56.

So, in the grand scheme of things; none of this thread matters. I will keep doing what I do and to each his own. I am just saying that I have seen it fail when something just a little more capable would have carried the mail.

And that one of my biggest mistakes was posting to this thread in the first place.
ITS ALL GOOD USE A LOT OF DIFFERENT CALIBERS MYSELF
 
For some reason I get the feeling that there is a small horde of members here who have experienced major deer hunting failures with varmint chamberings and are remaining silent. But there's no way to prove it.

We've all listened to 85 year old people who proudly proclaim their good health despite smoking 3 packs of cigarettes a day while downing their daily fifth of whiskey since the age of 13. Problem is, well, all the others who lived the same lifestyle and didn't make it to 50 arent around anymore to tell their side of the story.

A .223 is not the hammer of Thor and while it can and does kill deer, there are so many cartridges which are vastly superior for the job of quickly and humanely dispatching a deer. Kinetic energy, hydrostatic shock, Taylor Knockdown, etc, etc. No matter which unit of measure one chooses, the established medium game chamberings are in another class than the .223 Remington.

Now it's time for me to head to the duck blind with my .22 loaded with rat shot.
 
Maybe some of the Pennsy old timers can chime in but I think years ago, .243 was the minimum caliber for deer but not now. Also, .36 for muzzle loaded firearms. Anyone remember?
 
I think that hunters have been 'over-killing' deer for so long, that the perceived level of firepower required to kill one has been overestimated, and subsequently regurgitated to the point that facts hardly enter the debate...
Especially in the shotgun world! From wiki:

Shotgun slugs (12 gauge) achieve typical velocities of approximately 1800 fps for 1-oz. (437.5 grain) slugs, for an energy of over 3,100 ft-lbs (4200 J). In contrast, a .30-06 bullet weighing 150 grains at a velocity of 2600 fps achieves an energy of 2,250 ft-lbs (3051 J).
 
For some reason I get the feeling that there is a small horde of members here who have experienced major deer hunting failures with varmint chamberings and are remaining silent. But there's no way to prove it.

I think you are on to something here. It is never fun when you learn your limits at some living critters expense.

I know poor shooting has lost more deer than using too small caliber or the wrong bullet. Heck even the evil long range hunting.
 
I think that hunters have been 'over-killing' deer for so long, that the perceived level of firepower required to kill one has been overestimated, and subsequently regurgitated to the point that facts hardly enter the debate...

So a 338LM with 300gr bullets is not needed to kill todays modern smaller deer? :-)
 
Maybe some of the Pennsy old timers can chime in but I think years ago, .243 was the minimum caliber for deer but not now. Also, .36 for muzzle loaded firearms. Anyone remember?

I don't know what the law says up there these days, I haven't hunted Pa. since about 1998 or so. When I used to live there {79-81} the thing I do remember was 6mm {243} minimum for deer. There were a lot of very nice people up that way, just about everyone used a 760 with those ridiculous "see thru" scope mounts. No one could afford an AR-15...the only 223's I remember anyone ever having was the Mini-14. I remember going to Grice's when they were on "railroad street" in Clearfield. There wasn't hardly enough room to move around..they had a Colt CAR-15 that everyone was drooling over for $435.00.
Back then no one would have dreamed of shooting a deer with a 223...they didn't much believe in shooting does either.
 

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