The .223 stinks threads are always interesting. Bottom line is that it doesn't have the horsepower to close the deal on a marginal shot or even a good shot like the one I mentioned in my original response. And, if we are all honest, we will take the marginal shot from time to time. The doe I mentioned in my first post would have been stone dead with something that had the penetration to travel through her. A Barnes bullet and the patience to exactly place the shot aren't always possible. I haven't found a Barnes that shoots good in my rifles with factory ammunition. 77 grain Sierra's out of a 20" barrel have given me the highest success rate on shooting deer with permits.
Just a 223 rant...
- Thread starter Sniper338
- Start date
Shot placement is alwasy the key but I'd never choose a 223 to hunt deer and I have seven 223's, shoot them extensively but I used them for varmint and predator hunting.
I'm sure some one on this earth at some point shot a polar bear with a 223
but it's not the proper cartridge for deer in my area in which the males can easily go over 200 lbs. Even though I've taken a fair number of deer with the 243 (mostly does) I still perfer something heavier where I hunt. All the large bucks I've taken were taken with either a 30 06 or more recently the 308. I've missed a few in my 40+ years of deer hunting but I never lost one if hit with the 30-06 or the 308, the latter of which I consider the ideal eastern "big woods" deer cartridge.
You don't need a 458 Winchester magnum for deer but deer hunting is tough enough, no sense in handicapping ones self with a marginal cartridge. When that buck of a lifetime walks out in front of you makes sure you have enough gun to do the job humanely and effectively.
I'm sure some one on this earth at some point shot a polar bear with a 223
but it's not the proper cartridge for deer in my area in which the males can easily go over 200 lbs. Even though I've taken a fair number of deer with the 243 (mostly does) I still perfer something heavier where I hunt. All the large bucks I've taken were taken with either a 30 06 or more recently the 308. I've missed a few in my 40+ years of deer hunting but I never lost one if hit with the 30-06 or the 308, the latter of which I consider the ideal eastern "big woods" deer cartridge.You don't need a 458 Winchester magnum for deer but deer hunting is tough enough, no sense in handicapping ones self with a marginal cartridge. When that buck of a lifetime walks out in front of you makes sure you have enough gun to do the job humanely and effectively.
55gr soft point right behind the crease, about 1/3rd of the way up...
Some of you know, most of you don't, I've had a 300 BLK since cartridge inception. Not a "fanboy" or any of those internet terms, just like the round. I decided to deer hunt with it a few years back, tested bullets all summer in wet pack, precisely put shots where they needed to be put and shot a few groundhogs with it just to test out the bullet of choice. Killed a buck that year at 98 yards. It ran 20 yards and died. This year over on 300 BLK Talk we have had more hunters whining and complaining that it didn't blow a hole the size of a meteor in the deer, I hit it in the middle, why didn't it die? Couple that with me owning a store and I must say my opinion of the average hunter has diminished considerably. In the hands of a skilled hunter, I'm sure any firearm would work with proper shot placement and distance considerations. In the hands of the average hunter, I'm just not sure anything would work more than 60% of the time except a drone strike. Accuracy and Precision are lost words on the masses nowadays, it's to much work, to much practice, to much........blah blah. I wish I could screen them before selling them hunting licenses
If you cant kill a whitetail deer with a 223 using a 65g sgk out to about 150 or less then you don't need to deer hunt! Period!!!
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't do "shoulder" shots. Aim for the double lunger/liver. My brother lost and later found two shoulder shots with a 200 grain SST. The next two were lung shots, 50 yard run maximum both of them. My opinion, shooting a shoulder shot on a white tail with a .223 isn't a good practice. Why would you want to try and punch through that bone to get to the vitals?
Some of you know, most of you don't, I've had a 300 BLK since cartridge inception. Not a "fanboy" or any of those internet terms, just like the round. I decided to deer hunt with it a few years back, tested bullets all summer in wet pack, precisely put shots where they needed to be put and shot a few groundhogs with it just to test out the bullet of choice. Killed a buck that year at 98 yards. It ran 20 yards and died. This year over on 300 BLK Talk we have had more hunters whining and complaining that it didn't blow a hole the size of a meteor in the deer, I hit it in the middle, why didn't it die? Couple that with me owning a store and I must say my opinion of the average hunter has diminished considerably. In the hands of a skilled hunter, I'm sure any firearm would work with proper shot placement and distance considerations. In the hands of the average hunter, I'm just not sure anything would work more than 60% of the time except a drone strike. Accuracy and Precision are lost words on the masses nowadays, it's to much work, to much practice, to much........blah blah. I wish I could screen them before selling them hunting licenses
I have been using one when it was still a wildcat. Back then users took it for what it is basically a AK. It does seem like many think it is something it is not.
Whoever "they" are....they would be looking for a different place to hunt. Believe me, I get the "family" thing...I would write a book about my wife's family, but nobody would ever believe it!!!!!
I will say though, in all fairness, the 223 is not the only cartridge "lacking" for deer. I have seen some pretty good hits on whitetails with some pretty well accepted "deer calibers" that ran off. Deer have a tremendous will to live. The most surprising thing to me is when I went to Alaska for the first time and everyone up there had 12 gauge shotguns with slugs for grizzly/brown bear protection....I live in a shotgun only county and have deer hunted for over 40 years. Do you know how many deer I have seen run off after multiple hits with a 12 ga. slug??? and they are counting on that for big bears!!!!!
hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
That's just for knocking them unconscious while they run like hell!
WyleWD
Silver $$ Contributor
I don't blame ya for being hacked off or frustrated about it. A person (notice that I didn't say "hunter") that does crap like that deserves all the admonishing that can be brought to bare. Family stuff like that is a tough business though.
Just out of curiosity, was it a bolt gun or semi-auto?
WDMore of a bullet problem than a cartridge problem, along with slob hunters not bringing appropriate ammo. Hit a deer right with a Barnes X bullet or Nosler Partition, and they will die pretty quick. Shooting deer with varmint bullets is gonna cause problems in other calibers also.
Good deer hunting ammo in .223 requires handloading or spending more than common for Walmart, discount, or mil-surp fodder. Care needs to be taken to sight in with the intended hunting ammo, and (of course) practice until one is proficient at real hunting shooting positions and distances.
Lots of times varmint ammo will hit vegetation and blow up before even reaching the target. I recently watched a buddy vaporize vmax bullets from his .223 20 yards in front of his rifle hitting nothing but air. Not a hunting bullet.
Good deer hunting ammo in .223 requires handloading or spending more than common for Walmart, discount, or mil-surp fodder. Care needs to be taken to sight in with the intended hunting ammo, and (of course) practice until one is proficient at real hunting shooting positions and distances.
Lots of times varmint ammo will hit vegetation and blow up before even reaching the target. I recently watched a buddy vaporize vmax bullets from his .223 20 yards in front of his rifle hitting nothing but air. Not a hunting bullet.
If I may be excused for an "Old School" comment, I spent more than two years in RVN, MAC-V Advisory Teams, and then Army Rangers. We used FMJ ammunition in our M-16's, and I never had anyone I did one of the interactive situations with complain about the effect. Bullet placement is the only thing that really matters.
I have a 12ga bolt action slug gun, I shoot lightfiled slugs out of and it shoots really well out to 100. It is a total nightmare to shoot, 3 or 4 slug to make sure it's zeroed is all you want to shoot it. Recently switched over to a mossberg 20 gauge ( a cheap gun that shoots well) with lightfiled slugs and took a standing doe lasered at 139 yards. Double lunged it went about 20 yards.
I live in Indiana and we switched over to high powered this year and I thought it would help the hunting. But what i saw at the range the 2 Sunday's before season came in, made me change my mind. I was shooting my 308 and shooting 1 inch groups at a 100yd and the guy beside me was shooting his new $3000.00 ar10 set up with steel cased ammo and got it zeroed to where he was hitting a paper plate. Packed it up and then was telling me how excited he was about using it so he could reach out to and how it increased his chances of shooting that big buck he was seeing at 350 yds. It all about mentality and ethics I guess.
Yep! There are plenty of shooters that show up for the pre-hunt sight in at the range. If I had my way they would have to qualify at the range they hunt to get a license. Minute of "pie plate" or minute of "deer" has never been "good enough" for me and I limit my hunting range to 200 yards. If I can't get closer then I don't deserve that deer. My stand is if I can't kill it humanely with the first shot then it gets a free pass.
Been avoiding this thread since it was first posted. It's a flame festival waiting to ignite and there isn't enough popcorn in the world to keep the onlookers fed. But now I'm going to chime in.
The gun world is thick with people trying to turn some cartridge into something it was never intended or designed to do. People asking what load or bullet they should use to shoot an elk with their Model 70 .243. Then there's the people wanting to know how to load down their .243 to 22 LR velocities to shoot rabbits. Of course all the well intentioned experts are happy to give plenty of advice on how to turn their elephant gun into a varmint rifle or vice versa.
Is it time to finally let go of the accounts of polar bears being killed with a 22 Hornet or elephants being killed with a 276 Rigby? For goodness sake, we all know that just about any "well placed" bullet will put an animal down. And we also know that plenty of deer have run off after being poorly hit with a 300 Win Mag. There are no guarantees with any chambering but can we at least agree that the is such a thing as an appropriate cartridge for a particular game animal?
Let's look at it another way. Will a 270 Win kill a Kodiak bear with a well placed and properly designed bullet? Sure it will. Maybe. Is such a practice advisable? Nope. Are proponents of high-tech wizbang bullets ready to volunteer crawling through the alders to take a monster bear with a 270? Hell no. Because that would be a risky (at best) activity. Suddenly when our own butt may be on the line all the super-bullet theories fly out the window and the discussion turns to 338's, 375's and 45-70's.
Marginal is marginal. Just because the wounded quarry isn't a species that's inclined to turn around and take a hunk out of your own hide it doesn't mean using a marginal cartridge is any less inappropriate.
The gun world is thick with people trying to turn some cartridge into something it was never intended or designed to do. People asking what load or bullet they should use to shoot an elk with their Model 70 .243. Then there's the people wanting to know how to load down their .243 to 22 LR velocities to shoot rabbits. Of course all the well intentioned experts are happy to give plenty of advice on how to turn their elephant gun into a varmint rifle or vice versa.
Is it time to finally let go of the accounts of polar bears being killed with a 22 Hornet or elephants being killed with a 276 Rigby? For goodness sake, we all know that just about any "well placed" bullet will put an animal down. And we also know that plenty of deer have run off after being poorly hit with a 300 Win Mag. There are no guarantees with any chambering but can we at least agree that the is such a thing as an appropriate cartridge for a particular game animal?
Let's look at it another way. Will a 270 Win kill a Kodiak bear with a well placed and properly designed bullet? Sure it will. Maybe. Is such a practice advisable? Nope. Are proponents of high-tech wizbang bullets ready to volunteer crawling through the alders to take a monster bear with a 270? Hell no. Because that would be a risky (at best) activity. Suddenly when our own butt may be on the line all the super-bullet theories fly out the window and the discussion turns to 338's, 375's and 45-70's.
Marginal is marginal. Just because the wounded quarry isn't a species that's inclined to turn around and take a hunk out of your own hide it doesn't mean using a marginal cartridge is any less inappropriate.
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hogpatrol
Gold $$ Contributor
Here's my experiences with Pennsy but probably applies to a lot of states' deer hunters. After being cleaned and put away last year, pull the gun out of the closet the day after Thanksgiving (the following Monday is first day of firearms season), fondle it while dreaming of a big buck walking by around daybreak or no later than 8:00 a.m, call a couple buddies to go sight in at the range or on the farm, grab a couple boxes of different brands and bullet weights, set up pie plates at 50 and 100 yards. Go through both both boxes of ammo quick enough to fry bacon on the barrel, all the while adjusting the scope after every shot. Finally run out of ammo or stop with five left saying that's good enough for a deer. Flame on!
I helped that guy sight in his gun at the range! He had a scope that you had to bang on to get it to move to the new adjustments and all the patience of a rattle snake. I finally fired the gun to see if it was him or the gun/scope and it was shooting one inch groups for me. 2" high and 2-1/2" left but it shot a decent group. That was the best group I ever fired with factory ammo. I probably won't see him again until next year.
ttfreestyle
Silver $$ Contributor
All of this and they still have no idea where their cold bore shot will go, the ONLY shot that matters in a hunting gun.
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