Guys i just through most of the opinions they all make some sense in one way or another but i have to remind you folks that the f class was done to be a form of high power shooting. I think we are getting away from that. I believe that we have to be careful as to not get to far from that. we need to have a sport that requires a bit of shooting skills not just an ability to build a machine rest that we put onthe ground Lets rember that it is a shooting game.
Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook
- Thread starter Keith Glasscock
- Start date
I'm imagining a common sanction where every BR match would automatically include an f-class option and vice versa.
I agree and a simple rest configuration rule that works for most or all disciplines just sounds like a common sense approach vs things like this or how thick is the sand etc. And if somebody wants to lock the forearm hard into the front rest, I say let them. IME, that's not conducive to best accuracy but ymmv about that I guess.
I don't know but I don't see a uniform set of rules in regard to rests, that allows most anything two piece, being a game changer, in any way. I'd go as far as saying that even a one piece rest may not be any better than a two piece but I don't shoot off a one piece enough to really say for sure. The rotating heads on both the new seb and the Rodzillas help or cure alignment issues. And as far as I know, that feature is legal in any discipline....for now.
There is one already. I believe a rest that is IBS legal will be legal in almost every discipline.
Acyr
Gold $$ Contributor
I don't shoot open; I shoot TR but my opinion on it is treat it like a true open class. Use it to push the boundaries of innovation. If you like a class with strict rules on equipment and caliber shoot TR.
Acyr
Gold $$ Contributor
I think there is room for everyone in High power. But let's face it the old High power idea is slowly dying. With F class it is opening up the sport to more shooters. I have all the respect for sling shooters, but the way people were taught sling shooting is almost gone. (Military, High Schools, Local Clubs) I had to take a Project Appleseed Class (which was fantastic) to even learn how to shoot with a sling. I hate to say it but it is a lost art.
I disagree. They may, debatably, be the most restrictive rules, dictating such things as how thick the sand can/must be, for example.
short range
H) Rests: A front rest shall support the front part of a rifle: a rear rest shall support the rear part 46 of a rifle; neither rest may be attached to the bench, the rifle, or to the other. 47 The rear sandbag shall be a bag or combination of bags containing sand only. Zirconium 48 silicate, known as “heavy sand” is allowed. No other metallic sand can be used. A vertical 49 spacer under the rear bag will be allowed as long it contains no adjustments for windage or 50 elevation. The vertical spacer shall not contain any protrusions, which can be inserted into the 51 bench top or sandbag that sits upon it. The rear sandbag shall not be contained in any manner. 52 The rear sandbag cannot in any way be attached to the front rest. 53 The front sandbag must be such that the rifle can be easily removed in the vertical direction 54 without any front sandbag adjustment. The bag must also be designed to maintain 100% 55 contact with the bottom of the fore-end when in its shooting position. The front bag shall also 56 be a minimum of ½ inch thick in the vertical direction within the width of the fore-end. A 57 mechanical or integral support system of the sandbag are allowed, as long as there is no 58 contact with the Rifle or forend. The Rifle must be in contact with the Sandbag only!
Long range
Rest. A front rest sand bag shall support the front part of a rifle: a rear rest sand bag shall 266 support the rear part of a rifle; neither rest may be attached to the bench, the rifle, or to the other. 267 They must be movable in all directions independently of the other. Any part of the rifle resting 268 thereon must maintain one half inch distance from any part of the rest holding the sandbag on 269 which the rifle rests. Wherever the rifle makes contact on its sides there may a maximumone 270 half inch in height and a minimum of one half inch thick on each side. This does not apply to any 271 devise holding the sand bags in place or any fore-end stop. Sand bags on front rests must be a 272 minimum of one and one half inches wide from the direction of the muzzle to the butt stock and 273 rear rest sand bags must be a minimum of one and one half inches wide three inches long. 274 Multi-piece front bag systems are acceptable as long as they meet all other criteria listed inthis 275 definition. Only “Heavy Guns” are allowed rear rests that utilize mechanical adjustments.Rifles 276 will be removable from their front rests without lifting any part of the front rest from its contact 277 points with tbyhe bench it is occupying
Disagree with what. What part of those rules would make it illegal for NBRSA or Fclass.
That's all I said.
Just got back from our monthly local 1K F-Class match. Pretty day, not so pretty scores. I heard about the rule changes there and it sounded so arbitrary that it was hard to take seriously. Then I came home and saw this string of posts. Wow, just wow......
I am not a nationally ranked shooter, more a mid to upper quadrant guy, depending on the day. I shot HP-XC for 20+ years, made 6-7 trips to Camp Perry. Shot conventional LR for 12 years, a bit of Smallbore and about 15 years in USPSA. Shooting F-class now for the past 10 and just beginning to dabble in RFBR. (Did you know that in RFBR you can shoot sighters in the middle of your scoring string? Holy Cow.) So I've been an active competitive shooter most of my adult life. I have always paid attention to the rules and work hard to follow them. However, I have not paid close attention to how NRA rule changes are made. I feel like we've been blindsided. Newer shooters have been asking me what it means, I don't know what to say.
Many opinions here and a healthy debate. However, until we receive clarification from the NRA (is that even possible or likely?) we won't know the details. Everything until then is conjecture. I think Keith suggested an open letter to the NRA requesting clarification. I think that is a good idea but don't recall that the Rules Committee ever publicly responded to the members they serve. (They very well could have but I simply did not see it.) I am not even certain what the appeal process is or if one exists. But we need to try. Keith, please let us know if you need any help/support and please report back if/when you get a response.
Re: opinions, I know that F-Class falls under the HP rules but that doesn't mean that F-Class has to abide by the spirit of conventional HP as others have suggested. IMO tying F-Class rules to HP rules is just an administrative convenience for the NRA. Otherwise, they would have to manage a completely separate rule book. I don't think it is wise to read too much into that. Conventional HP and F-Class can (and should) participate at the same matches at the same range, that's it. F-Class was founded in HP but is now a totally separate thing.
Open Class to me was just fine the way it was. Who complained to the Rules Committee that the current front rest options were so unfair to justify a rule change? If so, unfair compared to what? A coat and a sling? I was still shooting conventional HP when F-Class first started. I thought it was silly that they shot the same conventional target, but in the end I wasn't competing against them so didn't care. Then they fixed that by shrinking the target. That's when it really got interesting. It was no longer an X count game at every match. I would never have taken up F-Class on the old/bigger target.
Re: the discussion around details (assumed and real) of the front rest rule change, I never learned how to shoot reliably off a bench, much less a rest with a sandbag that has to be groomed, adjusted and perfectly aligned with the rear rest. So when Rod made the 5-Axis top available I installed it on my SEB Mini, then my SEB NEO. The pivoting sand rails (which I think should qualify as sand bags) made a lot of sense to me. But the really important feature is the freely pivoting top. I am kind of meh about the side rollers, change those if you must. But leave the sand rails and the pivoting top. That pivoting top makes relay changes on the line easier and faster, a good thing for everybody. And for pity's sake don't take away the coaxial/joystick feature. That's just crazy talk. Should we go back in time to a one piece sand bag with screws for windage and elevation? If so, why? If the newer options are available to everyone why does it matter so much?
Sorry for the rant, but the game is dear to me and I hate to see it jerked around like this. Let's figure out what the change really means and why. Thanks
I am not a nationally ranked shooter, more a mid to upper quadrant guy, depending on the day. I shot HP-XC for 20+ years, made 6-7 trips to Camp Perry. Shot conventional LR for 12 years, a bit of Smallbore and about 15 years in USPSA. Shooting F-class now for the past 10 and just beginning to dabble in RFBR. (Did you know that in RFBR you can shoot sighters in the middle of your scoring string? Holy Cow.) So I've been an active competitive shooter most of my adult life. I have always paid attention to the rules and work hard to follow them. However, I have not paid close attention to how NRA rule changes are made. I feel like we've been blindsided. Newer shooters have been asking me what it means, I don't know what to say.
Many opinions here and a healthy debate. However, until we receive clarification from the NRA (is that even possible or likely?) we won't know the details. Everything until then is conjecture. I think Keith suggested an open letter to the NRA requesting clarification. I think that is a good idea but don't recall that the Rules Committee ever publicly responded to the members they serve. (They very well could have but I simply did not see it.) I am not even certain what the appeal process is or if one exists. But we need to try. Keith, please let us know if you need any help/support and please report back if/when you get a response.
Re: opinions, I know that F-Class falls under the HP rules but that doesn't mean that F-Class has to abide by the spirit of conventional HP as others have suggested. IMO tying F-Class rules to HP rules is just an administrative convenience for the NRA. Otherwise, they would have to manage a completely separate rule book. I don't think it is wise to read too much into that. Conventional HP and F-Class can (and should) participate at the same matches at the same range, that's it. F-Class was founded in HP but is now a totally separate thing.
Open Class to me was just fine the way it was. Who complained to the Rules Committee that the current front rest options were so unfair to justify a rule change? If so, unfair compared to what? A coat and a sling? I was still shooting conventional HP when F-Class first started. I thought it was silly that they shot the same conventional target, but in the end I wasn't competing against them so didn't care. Then they fixed that by shrinking the target. That's when it really got interesting. It was no longer an X count game at every match. I would never have taken up F-Class on the old/bigger target.
Re: the discussion around details (assumed and real) of the front rest rule change, I never learned how to shoot reliably off a bench, much less a rest with a sandbag that has to be groomed, adjusted and perfectly aligned with the rear rest. So when Rod made the 5-Axis top available I installed it on my SEB Mini, then my SEB NEO. The pivoting sand rails (which I think should qualify as sand bags) made a lot of sense to me. But the really important feature is the freely pivoting top. I am kind of meh about the side rollers, change those if you must. But leave the sand rails and the pivoting top. That pivoting top makes relay changes on the line easier and faster, a good thing for everybody. And for pity's sake don't take away the coaxial/joystick feature. That's just crazy talk. Should we go back in time to a one piece sand bag with screws for windage and elevation? If so, why? If the newer options are available to everyone why does it matter so much?
Sorry for the rant, but the game is dear to me and I hate to see it jerked around like this. Let's figure out what the change really means and why. Thanks
Keith Glasscock
Gold $$ Contributor
Open Letter submitted via email to the highpower, comp admin , and comphelp email addresses:
Dear Highpower Committee and Competitions Division,
I am writing this open letter today to gain a complete understanding of the proper interpretation of a rule change incorporated into the January 2023 revision of the NRA High Power Rulebook. This letter and any responses received will be published in the forums of accurateshooter.com in the thread named “Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook”
Note: for the sake of clarity in this letter, sections copied and pasted from the 2023 rulebook will be placed in quotation marks (“…”).
I ask that the Competitions Division not only answer this letter directly, but also publish the response for all NRA competitors and match directors to reference in the future. This will ensure that consistent interpretations are used nationwide. I humbly suggest that this clarification and any others provided to match directors and/or competitors be placed in a FAQ attached to the rulebooks page of the NRA competitions website.
RULES :
“22. F-CLASS RIFLE RULES
3.4.1 Rifle Rests –
(a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) - The F-Open rifle may be supported by a front rest bag, which may be fully adjustable for position but may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to itts prior point of aim from the previous shot. The rest may not mechanically capture the fore-end of the rifle in such a way that does not allow the rifle to be lifted directly up from the rest or to be placed directly down into the rest. Any rest which captures the fore-end of the rifle and that will not allow for the rifle to be lifted directly up from the rest shall be considered to be an attachment. The area of contact between the front bag and the rifle’s fore-end will not exceed 76mm x 76mm (2.99 inches x 2.99 inches). The F-Open front rest may be employed for either the rifle’s fore-end or for the shooter’s forward hand. If attached, clamped or held onto the rifle in any way, a front rest must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. The front rest may have up to three “feet”. Each “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”), provided this causes no significant permanent harm or damage to the firing point.
…
(9) F-Open Front Rest Bags - The fore-end of the rifle must rest upon and/or be guided by the front bag(s) described elsewhere in this section. The rifle may not be supported or guided during recoil by rollers, wheels, or any other mechanical device.”
QUESTIONS:
1. In 22.3.4.1(a)(9) the phrase “The rifle may not be supported or guided during recoil by rollers, wheels, or any other mechanical device.” Is not clear. What does “supported … by … any other mechanical device” mean exactly?
a. Does this prohibit the use of mechanically adjustable front rests (i.e. coaxial joystick rests or adjustable center post style rests), as those are mechanical devices that physically support the forend of the rifle during recoil?
b. Does this rule prohibit the use of anything other than a filled bag to guide the sides of the forend? Are solid materials or thin felt allowed to be used in lieu of side bags?
c. Are mechanically adjustable side bags allowed (i.e. side tension screws and positioning mechanisms)?
d. Is a free pivoting top to a front rest permitted (i.e. one that allows the front rest to self-align with the forend of the rifle)?
Your rapid response to this inquiry is appreciated.
Respectfully,
Keith Glasscock
Distinguished Rifleman Long Range F-Class, Master Team Coach
Dear Highpower Committee and Competitions Division,
I am writing this open letter today to gain a complete understanding of the proper interpretation of a rule change incorporated into the January 2023 revision of the NRA High Power Rulebook. This letter and any responses received will be published in the forums of accurateshooter.com in the thread named “Jan 2023 NRA Highpower RuleBook”
Note: for the sake of clarity in this letter, sections copied and pasted from the 2023 rulebook will be placed in quotation marks (“…”).
I ask that the Competitions Division not only answer this letter directly, but also publish the response for all NRA competitors and match directors to reference in the future. This will ensure that consistent interpretations are used nationwide. I humbly suggest that this clarification and any others provided to match directors and/or competitors be placed in a FAQ attached to the rulebooks page of the NRA competitions website.
RULES :
“22. F-CLASS RIFLE RULES
3.4.1 Rifle Rests –
(a) F-Class Open Rifle (F-O) - The F-Open rifle may be supported by a front rest bag, which may be fully adjustable for position but may not provide a positive mechanical method for returning the rifle to itts prior point of aim from the previous shot. The rest may not mechanically capture the fore-end of the rifle in such a way that does not allow the rifle to be lifted directly up from the rest or to be placed directly down into the rest. Any rest which captures the fore-end of the rifle and that will not allow for the rifle to be lifted directly up from the rest shall be considered to be an attachment. The area of contact between the front bag and the rifle’s fore-end will not exceed 76mm x 76mm (2.99 inches x 2.99 inches). The F-Open front rest may be employed for either the rifle’s fore-end or for the shooter’s forward hand. If attached, clamped or held onto the rifle in any way, a front rest must be included in the rifle’s overall weight. The front rest may have up to three “feet”. Each “foot” may terminate in a spike, which may be pressed into the ground by up to 50mm (about 2”), provided this causes no significant permanent harm or damage to the firing point.
…
(9) F-Open Front Rest Bags - The fore-end of the rifle must rest upon and/or be guided by the front bag(s) described elsewhere in this section. The rifle may not be supported or guided during recoil by rollers, wheels, or any other mechanical device.”
QUESTIONS:
1. In 22.3.4.1(a)(9) the phrase “The rifle may not be supported or guided during recoil by rollers, wheels, or any other mechanical device.” Is not clear. What does “supported … by … any other mechanical device” mean exactly?
a. Does this prohibit the use of mechanically adjustable front rests (i.e. coaxial joystick rests or adjustable center post style rests), as those are mechanical devices that physically support the forend of the rifle during recoil?
b. Does this rule prohibit the use of anything other than a filled bag to guide the sides of the forend? Are solid materials or thin felt allowed to be used in lieu of side bags?
c. Are mechanically adjustable side bags allowed (i.e. side tension screws and positioning mechanisms)?
d. Is a free pivoting top to a front rest permitted (i.e. one that allows the front rest to self-align with the forend of the rifle)?
Your rapid response to this inquiry is appreciated.
Respectfully,
Keith Glasscock
Distinguished Rifleman Long Range F-Class, Master Team Coach
You're right. I misspoke. My point is to let people use what they want without a bunch of restrictive but mostly inconsequential rules. Who cares if the sand is 1/2 thick or not..for example?
Thx Keith, all of this clarification is needed! I also want to know if the pivot feature of front sandbags are deemed illegal? Must they or any front sandbag be fixed?
Thx Ted
A pillar of the shooting community has commented. I don't have any skin in this comment string, but expect very few people know the strength of these words!
did you read this whole thread?
Big_Daddy
Gold $$ Contributor
Great letter Keith....
And now we simply wait for a response.
It will be an interesting one without a doubt.
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