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Is TR actually behind Open, anymore?

History says FTR is behind FO when it comes to agging and X's. And it appears the gap got wider for about 5 years. Maybe it's starting to close back up idk. Keep in mind these scores were most assuredly shot on different relays so maybe not a true 100% comparison.
2020 FO-1575-73X FTR- 1561-56X.......14 points and 17X's.
2019 FO-1573-78x FTR-1549-53x.......24 points and 25X's.
2018 FO-1188-62X FTR-1161-42X.......27 points and 20X's.
2017 FO-1582-68X FTR-1557-56X.......25 points and 12X's.
2016 FO-1781-112X FTR-1759-63X.......22 points and 49X's.
2015 FO- 1583-91X FTR-1558-55X.......25 points and 36X's.
2014 FO-1587-83X FTR1573-65X........14 points and 18X's.
2013 FO-1283 59X FTR-1270 44X.......13 points and 15X's.

If you wanna handicap yourself over a 3-4 day match, feel free to shoot that FTR rig in Open. :D :D
 
Disclaimer: I'm a knuckle dragging service rifle guy, not an F-class shooter, so I may be talking out of turn here.

As I see it, TR is a trade off between BC/wind efficiency vs. holding vertical. The heavies can fight the wind better, but have a harder time holding vertical due to smaller changes in muzzle velocity causing a larger vertical at 1000. If you go lighter/faster like the 155's, you can hold better vertical, but you'll see a wider group due to more wind deflection. 5 fps is a bigger deal at 2650 fps than it is at 2950. The consensus today seems to be to go with the heavies. I wonder if you looked at all the points lost in TR by the top shooters, how many are due to vertical (not just pure 9 ring elevation, but leaking one out here and there in the corners where the 10 ring gets narrower)?

Open gets the best of both worlds, high BC and high velocities/easier elevation control.

Feel free to tell me I'm way off and that I need to stay in my service rifle lane :)
I completely agree with you that the heavier bullets show more vertical in F-TR. Furthermore, amongst top shooters, I believe that he/she who holds the best vertical wins more than his/her fair share of matches. When it comes to wind-reading, the top shooters are very close together. It's usually the person who is shooting flat that comes out on top. Finally, I think this little piece of information should guide your bullet selection. ;)
 
I completely agree with you that the heavier bullets show more vertical in F-TR. Furthermore, amongst top shooters, I believe that he/she who holds the best vertical wins more than his/her fair share of matches. When it comes to wind-reading, the top shooters are very close together. It's usually the person who is shooting flat that comes out on top. Finally, I think this little piece of information should guide your bullet selection. ;)

Yeah, XTR also talked about the corner 9’s relating to vertical. The current standard bullet was yesterday’s heavier bullet, though. There seems to be a steady trade of speed for BC, 150 (‘06), 168, 175, 185, 190, 200... with really no looking back, except of course by certain rule the 155, which became very refined and effective. With these wide stance bipods, counteracting torque, RADS and such minimizing the stock’s bounce off of the shooter, I’m just wondering if 8 twist barrels are in the future. There’s currently a 30 cal bullet offered with a BC that is unmatched by even its .338 counterpart.

In open there’s not presently much incentive to go heavier. Shooters seem very content with 9 twist and 180 class bullets. If the black target is roughly three 10 rings wide, they are holding in that zone 98 percent of all shots and pretty happy with it. But you guys in TR are probably holding in the white a good double or triple the number of shots that Open is, and those are dicey. It’s still not every match, but can be costly when hours of that wind prevails.

There’s one intrinsic benefit to TR, it is physically impossible for your .308 case to blow up a modern match bullet, and I suspect your brass’ pockets are actually stronger than any magnum’s except the LM, and certainly the rebated .284.
 
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I wrote some of the following message on another forum late last year. I think it fits well in this thread.

Almost 2 years ago, after learning of the passing of Swampy, I decided to switch to Hornady A-tips 230gr bullets on the strength of recommendations at that forum and the technical data.

It was not an immediate success. To be completely transparent, it was nothing short of a disaster. My scores took a nosedive and then they got worse. Everything that I had learned in 14 years of F-TR and 38+ years of competition shooting was out the window. Nothing made sense. One day I would have a great string then it would just blow up. After 1300 rounds of match ammo with 230 A-tips, I was ready to give up on these bad boys. Then I loaded my last 300 rounds for one club match and TSRA LR.


I shot a club match 2 weekends ago (when I first wrote this) and did ok, but not as I used to score. Then we got to TSRA last weekend (in October 2020). On Saturday, we started the individuals in bunny conditions (Delta had gone by that time, and it's quite calm after a hurricane has gone by,) I shot a master score. Not good enough to place, however. As the day wore on my scores got worse. I was watching my bullets jump up or down and not going where I expected them to go.

Saturday night, I toyed with the idea of sleeping in late the next day and not bothering going to the match. What was the use? But that's not my style; I was going to show up and shoot.

On Sunday, I started the first match, fully expecting to take about 12-14 rounds to stabilize after an din-depth cleaning but instead I went for record after 6 rounds and did OK. A couple hours later, after coming back from the pits, I started my last match. The mirage was up and running and the wind was nasty, once again. I took three sighters after putting 2 MOA on the gun to get me just to the left side of the 10 ring. I figured the wind was mainly from the front right, (northeast) and I would just hold one or 2 lines from the X and play from there. After the third sighter, which was a 9 at 3 o'clock, I declared for record and started my 20 round string. X, one on; X, two on; 10, three on. I was running my magnificent March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X and I was watching the mirage in my Kowa on my left side. I kept up the rhythm and I was shooting fast. I was adjusting between center and 2 left. Then on shot 7, I got an 8 at 7 o'clock and I figured the A-tips were acting up again. Looking in my scope, I noticed that the mirage had actually switched around just as I shot and that was what caused the blowout left and low. Without hesitation I switched to the right side, holding 2 and a half lines right, favored high and cut loose. 10, nine on. I kept going. 10s and a few Xs. I was switching left and right, about 2, 2 and a half, and then I dropped another one, a 9 at 9 o'clock just outside the 10. Should I challenge? Nah, I'll lose the story of the conditions. I kept on going for the last few rounds, collecting a couple more Xs, and even aiming center at times. My last shot was a 10. I dropped two rounds, but 3 points for a 197-7X. I will tell you that I had some very fat 10s, but a 10 is a 10 is a 10, however fat it may be. I was elated with my rifle and the ammo. My scorer was impressed. I did not listen to the other scores, but he told me this was some fancy shooting and that others were struggling in these bad conditions.

I signed my card, my scorer turned it in and then I noticed I was the first one to finish. Looking back over my string, it seemed like I just could not miss; left hold, right hold, center, etc. Never more than two, two and a half lines out. It was uncanny.

I walked up and down the line looking at other shooters scores and it dawned on me I had done quite well. As it turns out, I won that match.

This is what the A-tips were supposed to do for me; I was holding one to two lines less than the other shooters as the A-tips were bucking the wind. I shot a club match following TSRA LR and the remaining A-tips were back to their usual unpredictable self. I did not buy any more A-Tips. I did find a box of 210gr JLKs, I had forgotten. Also, some very generous members here sent me some of their 210s, a gesture for which I am very grateful.

I loaded up my JLK 210s for the next TSRA MR and actually did quite well. I was still uncertain about the ammo and my shooting after such a long spell of bad scores and surprises. But that’s in the past now and with my stash, the generosity of members here, and the fact JLKs are back in production; I’m good to go.

It is my belief the 230s were too heavy and that may have affected my gun handling. I do know that I developed a blue spot about the size of a dime on my clavicle after each match with those bullets. I have also noticed that with the 210s, my rifle stays on or near the target instead of bouncing 2 targets left after every shot. I miss the BC of the 230, but not the pain, the surprises, and the bad scores.


But for one glorious string on a windy, switchy Sunday afternoon, I was able to coax the A-tips to shoot "sub-MOA" at 1000 yards for 23 rounds.



However, one must remember that Sic Transit Gloria; the b*tch.
 
I wrote some of the following message on another forum late last year. I think it fits well in this thread.

Almost 2 years ago, after learning of the passing of Swampy, I decided to switch to Hornady A-tips 230gr bullets on the strength of recommendations at that forum and the technical data.

It was not an immediate success. To be completely transparent, it was nothing short of a disaster. My scores took a nosedive and then they got worse. Everything that I had learned in 14 years of F-TR and 38+ years of competition shooting was out the window. Nothing made sense. One day I would have a great string then it would just blow up. After 1300 rounds of match ammo with 230 A-tips, I was ready to give up on these bad boys. Then I loaded my last 300 rounds for one club match and TSRA LR.


I shot a club match 2 weekends ago (when I first wrote this) and did ok, but not as I used to score. Then we got to TSRA last weekend (in October 2020). On Saturday, we started the individuals in bunny conditions (Delta had gone by that time, and it's quite calm after a hurricane has gone by,) I shot a master score. Not good enough to place, however. As the day wore on my scores got worse. I was watching my bullets jump up or down and not going where I expected them to go.

Saturday night, I toyed with the idea of sleeping in late the next day and not bothering going to the match. What was the use? But that's not my style; I was going to show up and shoot.

On Sunday, I started the first match, fully expecting to take about 12-14 rounds to stabilize after an din-depth cleaning but instead I went for record after 6 rounds and did OK. A couple hours later, after coming back from the pits, I started my last match. The mirage was up and running and the wind was nasty, once again. I took three sighters after putting 2 MOA on the gun to get me just to the left side of the 10 ring. I figured the wind was mainly from the front right, (northeast) and I would just hold one or 2 lines from the X and play from there. After the third sighter, which was a 9 at 3 o'clock, I declared for record and started my 20 round string. X, one on; X, two on; 10, three on. I was running my magnificent March-X 10-60X56 HM at 50X and I was watching the mirage in my Kowa on my left side. I kept up the rhythm and I was shooting fast. I was adjusting between center and 2 left. Then on shot 7, I got an 8 at 7 o'clock and I figured the A-tips were acting up again. Looking in my scope, I noticed that the mirage had actually switched around just as I shot and that was what caused the blowout left and low. Without hesitation I switched to the right side, holding 2 and a half lines right, favored high and cut loose. 10, nine on. I kept going. 10s and a few Xs. I was switching left and right, about 2, 2 and a half, and then I dropped another one, a 9 at 9 o'clock just outside the 10. Should I challenge? Nah, I'll lose the story of the conditions. I kept on going for the last few rounds, collecting a couple more Xs, and even aiming center at times. My last shot was a 10. I dropped two rounds, but 3 points for a 197-7X. I will tell you that I had some very fat 10s, but a 10 is a 10 is a 10, however fat it may be. I was elated with my rifle and the ammo. My scorer was impressed. I did not listen to the other scores, but he told me this was some fancy shooting and that others were struggling in these bad conditions.

I signed my card, my scorer turned it in and then I noticed I was the first one to finish. Looking back over my string, it seemed like I just could not miss; left hold, right hold, center, etc. Never more than two, two and a half lines out. It was uncanny.

I walked up and down the line looking at other shooters scores and it dawned on me I had done quite well. As it turns out, I won that match.

This is what the A-tips were supposed to do for me; I was holding one to two lines less than the other shooters as the A-tips were bucking the wind. I shot a club match following TSRA LR and the remaining A-tips were back to their usual unpredictable self. I did not buy any more A-Tips. I did find a box of 210gr JLKs, I had forgotten. Also, some very generous members here sent me some of their 210s, a gesture for which I am very grateful.

I loaded up my JLK 210s for the next TSRA MR and actually did quite well. I was still uncertain about the ammo and my shooting after such a long spell of bad scores and surprises. But that’s in the past now and with my stash, the generosity of members here, and the fact JLKs are back in production; I’m good to go.

It is my belief the 230s were too heavy and that may have affected my gun handling. I do know that I developed a blue spot about the size of a dime on my clavicle after each match with those bullets. I have also noticed that with the 210s, my rifle stays on or near the target instead of bouncing 2 targets left after every shot. I miss the BC of the 230, but not the pain, the surprises, and the bad scores.


But for one glorious string on a windy, switchy Sunday afternoon, I was able to coax the A-tips to shoot "sub-MOA" at 1000 yards for 23 rounds.



However, one must remember that Sic Transit Gloria; the b*tch.
I personally know a few folks that have tried 230s in F-TR, and have read a few anecdotal stories about their use here. It didn't seem to take very long for most of these folks to switch back to bullets in the 200-ish gr range, I assume largely due to gun handling issues. Gun handling with a .308 F-TR rifle seems to become noticeably more challenging with bullets in the 215-220 gr range and up. I can imagine the lighter weight limit as compared to F-Open, and the fact that ski-/sled-type bipods are now the norm in F-TR, have a lot to do with the lack of forgiveness in terms of gun handling when using 230 gr bullets in F-TR. Just out of curiosity Denys, aren't you using a ski-type bipod? I seem to recall that you had been using that style of bipod previously. Being one of the last remaining dinosaurs that still use an oversized "traditional" bipod that is heavily pre-loaded in F-TR, I have often wondered whether the gun handling issues associated with using heavier-than-normal bullets in F-TR might be tamed down a bit. However, the heaviest bullets I have ever tried are the Berger 215s, which seem to work pretty well in my hands.
 
I personally know a few folks that have tried 230s in F-TR, and have read a few anecdotal stories about their use here. It didn't seem to take very long for most of these folks to switch back to bullets in the 200-ish gr range, I assume largely due to gun handling issues. Gun handling with a .308 F-TR rifle seems to become noticeably more challenging with bullets in the 215-220 gr range and up. I can imagine the lighter weight limit as compared to F-Open, and the fact that ski-/sled-type bipods are now the norm in F-TR, have a lot to do with the lack of forgiveness in terms of gun handling when using 230 gr bullets in F-TR. Just out of curiosity Denys, aren't you using a ski-type bipod? I seem to recall that you had been using that style of bipod previously. Being one of the last remaining dinosaurs that still use an oversized "traditional" bipod that is heavily pre-loaded in F-TR, I have often wondered whether the gun handling issues associated with using heavier-than-normal bullets in F-TR might be tamed down a bit. However, the heaviest bullets I have ever tried are the Berger 215s, which seem to work pretty well in my hands.
I have a Joy pod.
 
Denys, I’m going to counterbalance your A-Tip testimonial just a little bit. Now, I fully glean and appreciate that you are only talking about weight, and the trade offs of shooting heavy bullets, not quality, well-understood. Now, in a manner of sorts I like the term dinosaur for myself, too, in that I’m just a “for fun” unaffiliated match shooter, but one that tries to make many large matches and shoot well. That frees me to buy, have, use and pretty much discuss all stocks, scopes, actions, brass bullets and powder from multiple makers.

Wrt Hornady, I was amongst the first to disintegrate the 7mm ELDM, (2017 rsaum) before there was any known worry that might happen, at the state 600 in Carthage where I was fifth as it started happening. I didn’t necessarily suspect there was a bullet problem for a good while, because I was starting out with rsaum as and as far as I knew my gun alone caused the problem. But when other guys started having problems later, posting and realizing none of us were alone, Hornady got unrestrained instant feedback, assuming they monitor the forums. I was very specific, but many guys that didn’t shoot ELDM’s voiced opinions too, including a common refrain that Hornady was a mass market maker and wasn’t up to the task of match bullets, or our demanding standards.

I like to think those charged earfuls may have inspired the A-Tips. If they did, then the double down by Red and the resulting product is about the best outcome I’ve ever seen from the consumer feedback loop put to work, in our hobby.

I’m writing from the hotel at the Open, TR and Palma match in Phoenix. There is a serious set of open and Tr shooters here, 4x more Open, and we just shot our pair fire day at 1,000. I’m shooting A-Tips in a Saum. I do not know exactly how many others are also shooting the 190’s. Speaking just for myself, I finished 10th of 26, (TR winner had my same point count), but I have the rare contended feeling that I not only know the error of the point drops, but that they were wind call induced, mainly close to being “10” under call 9’s, and that my my reluctant edge of the black holds actually compared well to other open shooters’ edge of the board holds. These bullets put about 8 shots of mine (most my drops) just barely east of the fattest part of the 10, and that’s purely on me. and if I can step up my calling game, by that amount, then I’m saying hello to some T-Rex’s.

In sum I’d guess no more than 3 guys shot them, they didn’t win, and are in the upper half. I’m not shooting the whole match with them only because I need to make room for more of them, in brass that was already loaded. I guess that means I like these, for Texas LR this spring.
 
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David, I like what you are saying and I'm perfectly happy with your counterpoints, but I am not sure the A-Tips are as perfect as you seem to believe. Granted, I did weigh a number of them and the weight was really tight. I wrote that down somewhere, but not in my usual place and now I can't find it. It was good enough that I didn't bother weighing each and every bullet. I just wiped them and seated them.

The thing of it is that I do really well with my 210 JLKs and yet I got surprises in almost every string with the 230 A-Tips. The weight difference is 20gr, which is just under a 10% weight increase from the 210s. The charge reduction was about 3grains so I was pushing 17grains more of bullet/powder than before. Very little difference.

The load was good, as can be seen by some of the scores I could get with the 230s, but there were too many "surprises." I'm a fairly decent shot and I think my gun-handling is passable and while I know some of those surprises are mine, there are way too many others that are just unexplained, even in bunny conditions.

I'm not saying it was due to the bullets, and not just their increased weight, but I surely can't say it wasn't the bullets. I went back to the 210 JLKs and I'm a happy camper, but I can say that I put in the time, expense and effort on the 230 A-Tips and for me, in my .308 Winchester, the 230 A-Tips did not work out.
 
David, I like what you are saying and I'm perfectly happy with your counterpoints, but I am not sure the A-Tips are as perfect as you seem to believe. Granted, I did weigh a number of them and the weight was really tight. I wrote that down somewhere, but not in my usual place and now I can't find it. It was good enough that I didn't bother weighing each and every bullet. I just wiped them and seated them.

The thing of it is that I do really well with my 210 JLKs and yet I got surprises in almost every string with the 230 A-Tips. The weight difference is 20gr, which is just under a 10% weight increase from the 210s. The charge reduction was about 3grains so I was pushing 17grains more of bullet/powder than before. Very little difference.

The load was good, as can be seen by some of the scores I could get with the 230s, but there were too many "surprises." I'm a fairly decent shot and I think my gun-handling is passable and while I know some of those surprises are mine, there are way too many others that are just unexplained, even in bunny conditions.

I'm not saying it was due to the bullets, and not just their increased weight, but I surely can't say it wasn't the bullets. I went back to the 210 JLKs and I'm a happy camper, but I can say that I put in the time, expense and effort on the 230 A-Tips and for me, in my .308 Winchester, the 230 A-Tips did not work out.

So, .... are you going to try the 250’s :)?
 
I’m not going to get into who can beat who on a given day, but I’ve seen FTR win it all in a match, shooting 185 Berger’s.

That being said, IMO, the FTR bullet weight issue goes back to the Palma and Fullbore rules. Everywhere but in the USA, Palma limits bullet weight, i.e. <156 grains for the 308. With that bullet weight, you can stuff just so much powder in a 308 case to give you “X” FPS with say a 30” barrel. Everyone is competing on the same level.

This is my opinion after watching the evolution of FClass, which I’ll state in spite of Twitter shutting me down. :oops: When I started FTR back on the LR target, the 175 SMK was the go to bullet. Then the 180, 185, 190, 200 grainers and who knows came and will come along. All working to buy less wind and make it easier to score in less then ideal conditions. I have no issue with good quality actions and gunsmithing. FTR was evolved from Palma with their international limitations. Let’s see how good a rifleman you are, reading the wind and working to keep a 155 SMK in that little X ring at 1000 yards.
 
I would have zero issues if the powers that be would make a rule change requiring every FTR shooter to shoot a 155 grain bullet. I started out shooting 155's in TR. I have shot thousands of 185's, 200's, 215's and 230's out of 308 barrels.
It all boils down to picking a bullet you can shoot well and learning it. Right now we are free to choose that bullet for ourselves. I don't think it gives anyone an advantage to shoot 215's over 200's or 185's. If you get beat by someone shooting 215's you only have yourself to blame. You should have practiced more with your choice of bullet.
Someone who learns one bullet and knows how to point it correctly has the opportunity to beat anyone shooting any weight bullet if he does his part.
Don't blame the bullet. It's just doing what its told.
 
...It all boils down to picking a bullet you can shoot well and learning it... ...Someone who learns one bullet and knows how to point it correctly has the opportunity to beat anyone shooting any weight bullet if he does his part.
Again, early on, watching a seasoned shooter, regardless of their discipline, shoot, get on the scope, checking the wind, making an adjustment, getting back on the gun and shoot another center X, was awesome. it didn’t matter what the conditions were doing he knew his gun and bullet and how to use them.

Maybe we should change the saying to...”Fear the rifleman with one rifle and one bullet”.
 
I would have zero issues if the powers that be would make a rule change requiring every FTR shooter to shoot a 155 grain bullet. I started out shooting 155's in TR. I have shot thousands of 185's, 200's, 215's and 230's out of 308 barrels.
It all boils down to picking a bullet you can shoot well and learning it. Right now we are free to choose that bullet for ourselves. I don't think it gives anyone an advantage to shoot 215's over 200's or 185's. If you get beat by someone shooting 215's you only have yourself to blame. You should have practiced more with your choice of bullet.
Someone who learns one bullet and knows how to point it correctly has the opportunity to beat anyone shooting any weight bullet if he does his part.
Don't blame the bullet. It's just doing what its told.
I agree with you but while we are at it lets limit open to 140gr bullet.
 
I agree with you but while we are at it lets limit open to 140gr bullet.
Open is a little like a Top Fuel Dragster, but I would like to see weight limitations in each caliber, a shooter should be able to shoot their choice of caliber to .33, as the rules now state, but each would have a weight limit. I don’t think it would happen, maybe in FTR, but not Open.
But then the politics of allowing the bullet companies to make the latest and greatest. They would complain and probably would have more clout then the average trigger puller with the rule committees.
 
I don't see the point in dropping to 155s. The aggregate scores would drop, but the winners/losers would still be the same.


Probably not feasible anymore either with E-targets. You'd end up with a lot more shot sensors/hubs.
 
I agree, but the winners would be the rifleman who can read the conditions and hit their target, all things being equal.
The winners are already the shooters that can best read the conditions and hit their target, regardless of the bullet weight they are using. The reason for that is that all things are never ever "equal", no matter how hard one might like them to be. The shooter that works harder at becoming a proficient wind reader has an advantage. The shooter that spends hours/days/weeks at the reloading bench and out at the range fine-tuning a load has an advantage. The shooter that can afford a high-end custom rifle/scope has an advantage as compared to most off-the-shelf rifles. Trying to compensate and "level the playing field" by inventing restrictions such as limiting bullet weight does not work. It never has, and there are plenty of examples in other sports that demonstrate this.

I have won a lot of F-TR matches using my .223 Rem with 90 VLDs against shooters using 200 gr .308 Win bullets, which enjoy a decided ballistic advantage. Why? I did a better job of reading the conditions that they did. I have also been soundly beaten by shooters using 185 Juggernauts when I was using a very solid load with a much higher BC 200 gr bullet. Why? They paid better attention to the conditions than I did. I have also used uber-high BC monolithic solid bullets in F-TR matches and finished rather poorly, even though they should have provided a huge advantage in terms of external ballistics. Why? Because in my hands they could not be loaded with the same accuracy and precision as conventional lead core bullets. The laws of physics, as well as the motivation, work ethic, and innate skills a shooter brings to the table are far better deciding factors for the outcomes of matches than imposed bullet weight restrictions. Once you start down that road, it will be a never-ending succession of new rules and restrictions in a futile attempt to "make things even", when in reality they have never been, and never will be, equal.
 

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