Is TR actually behind Open, anymore?

[kzin]

I do a ton of smallbore shooting in both f-open and f-tr style where there is no ballistic difference. There is no doubt that I shoot better off the rest but it's only by about 1%. Part of that is I just can't get as solid and positive with my joypod stick as I can with the sinclair rest knobs.

I know that a joypod has won smallbore nationals, beating rests.

 

[Acyr]

@davidjoe maybe I need to try this experiment. I love experiments. .308 off an open style rest? 215's? 230's? I have the equipment to do it, just need to add some weight...

 

[davidjoe]

@davidjoe maybe I need to try this experiment. I love experiments. .308 off an open style rest? 215's? 230's? I have the equipment to do it, just need to add some weight...

I hoped you’d see this, you are proving that TR isn’t actually behind Open .

Or, maybe the corollary question, when I recall your nationals, if TR matches Open after days of shooting, what would have happened if the guns had been equal??

 

[Jennb]

@davidjoe maybe I need to try this experiment. I love experiments. .308 off an open style rest? 215's? 230's? I have the equipment to do it, just need to add some weight...

I did one, you get the other!

 

[ShootDots]

@davidjoe maybe I need to try this experiment. I love experiments. .308 off an open style rest? 215's? 230's? I have the equipment to do it, just need to add some weight...

Andy, I know just how well you shoot in F-T/R. I think you need to stay in T/R and forget F-Open!

 

[BP1]

I heard the type of carpet makes it a Open gun.

We have a winner..

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ned - can you provide more details on you come up with this number for advantage? is it the improved horizontal distribution in a fixed constant plus variable distribution of wind? e.g +- 2mph from 10mph?

having less total wind to hold due to improved BC is convenient, but doesn’t in and of itself improve distribution.

i’d like so see how others are doing the math on ballistic advantage.

The values I posted (0.5 MOA at 600 yd and 0.9 MOA at 1000 yd) are solely the difference in wind deflection predicted for a full-value 10 mph wind using the 200.20X .30 cal bullet @ 2650 fps (F-TR), and the 180 Hybrid 7 mm bullet at 2800 fps (F-Open). In most situations, I find such a direct apples-to-apples comparison to be sufficient for my needs. For a more practical windage differential between the two examples, one would also need to include a realistic assessment of their wind-reading potential. In my opinion, even beginners should be able to make a much better wind estimate than 10 mph, but the 10 mph full-value figure is one that has commonly been used for comparative purposes.

Although a computer-generated shot distributions may provide more information (for example, in comparing scores of two shooters of identical wind-reading capabilities, one using an F-TR setup/load and one with an F-Open setup/load), the shape of those distributions (i.e. width) will still be based, in part, on the relative wind deflections predicted for two different bullets. Given the complexity involved in such predicted distributions, how well they actually mirror reality is also subject to interpretation. I've looked at quite a few other shot distribution predictions other people have made, and IMO they don't always look like what I know from pulling many targets fired by actual competitors over the years that they should look like. For that reason, I usually limit my external ballistic estimates to the most simplistic terms possible, meaning straight differences in wind deflection as predicted by ballistic calculators. As mentioned, I generally find those estimates to be sufficient for my needs.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ned, your drift differentials are what I came up with as well. It’s definitely material. There’s more headroom afoot in TR than open though, I believe. Probably 6 new bullets over 200 in the last 2 years, including Berger, but put them in Open and accurate round count is unbearable (or the recoil is thought to be).

XTR had posted with me last year on H1000 and the 250 A-Tip. If you run a chart on it at 2,450 FPS it beats or at least equals the .284 at 1,000, which is an attainable speed. Back then, no one had yet put A-Tips to work but by now there is at least one open 190 shooter who is extremely hard to beat with them.

I remember that thread well. Although I like the idea in theory, it adds an additional variable into the mix, which is to say, increased difficulty with gun handling. When I put together everything I know, either from direct work of my own, extensive reading here or at other shooting forums, and the experiences of shooters I know personally, it seems as though there is a sort of "invisible" upper limit to bullet weight in F-TR, somewhere in the 220-230 gr range. Most likely for reasons of gun handling, it seems as though few if any F-TR shooters have been able to obtain consistent results with .30 cal bullets in that weight range or heavier. I'm not saying that it can't be done, or that it shouldn't be attempted. Rather, it just doesn't seem like anyone has really been consistently successful over the long haul with bullets that heavy in F-TR...yet. But it might be coming, you never know.

 

[Sniper338]

After recently winning a mid range match shooting open with a .284 Shehane, close to open weight rifle but using a total FTR set up with XIT stock and a Duplin bipod. It is my opinion that the caliber and bullet availability of open rifles is what dominates their class.

For someone who is used to handling a bipod and the recoil of a .308 a tripod open front rest might have given me a tighter group and a few more X’s but a 448 out of 450 with 35X’s in crazy winds was not too shabby.

I can tell you for sure that my wind holds would have been much different for my .308. The extra weight of the rifle kept the recoil more manageable for the caliber but on an open rest recoil would have been less to deal with because of the difference in handling the rifle. No hop to deal with and getting back on target with an open rest is much simpler.

When all said and done TR is sneaking up on Open score wise because we are getting better at handling our rifles and learning more about reading the wind. We have been shooting the same weight of bullets with similar ballistics long enough that we have settled into a groove.

Ive never felt under gunned with a bipod in f open. I still beat most people besides the 1st and 2nd place guys. They never beat me by much either.

 

[davidjoe]

One simple observation provides the answer:. How many.308s do you see on the F-Open line? "0"

True, but nearly all those F-Open guns on the line, didn’t win, while a .308 on the other hand has never lost .

That said, an RSAUM barreled action is now in the stock for this weekend!

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

True, but nearly all those F-Open guns on the line, didn’t win, while a .308 on the other hand has never lost .

That said, an RSAUM barreled action is now in the stock for this weekend!

Yeah, don't be so sure. I won a fair share of matches in the early days of F-class with my .223 in F-TR against .308s. And I was not alone shooting that caliber in F-TR. Granted, this was over 12 years ago, when the dinosaurs were running up and down I-10 and especially 288, but nevertheless, it was so.

Looking forward to seeing you at the February 7 match.

 

[jrh84]

Disclaimer: I'm a knuckle dragging service rifle guy, not an F-class shooter, so I may be talking out of turn here.

As I see it, TR is a trade off between BC/wind efficiency vs. holding vertical. The heavies can fight the wind better, but have a harder time holding vertical due to smaller changes in muzzle velocity causing a larger vertical at 1000. If you go lighter/faster like the 155's, you can hold better vertical, but you'll see a wider group due to more wind deflection. 5 fps is a bigger deal at 2650 fps than it is at 2950. The consensus today seems to be to go with the heavies. I wonder if you looked at all the points lost in TR by the top shooters, how many are due to vertical (not just pure 9 ring elevation, but leaking one out here and there in the corners where the 10 ring gets narrower)?

Open gets the best of both worlds, high BC and high velocities/easier elevation control.

Feel free to tell me I'm way off and that I need to stay in my service rifle lane

 

[sdean]

True, but nearly all those F-Open guns on the line, didn’t win, while a .308 on the other hand has never lost .

That said, an RSAUM barreled action is now in the stock for this weekend!

Just about every Open shooter could chamber cartridge of choice. The fact that none chooses 308 says something to me. You could campaign your Ftr gun in open this year and prove your point.

 

[weedhopper]

I believe a .308 in F open could be a winner at the 600 yard line !
Longer barrel life, less recoil , super easy to tune.
Hum now the wheels are turning in my head..lol

 

[davidjoe]

Just about every Open shooter could chamber cartridge of choice. The fact that none chooses 308 says something to me. You could campaign your Ftr gun in open this year and prove your point.

yes, at club matches I’m going to try them out. Like XTR alluded to, I’m wondering if TR wind requirements train a better level of sensitivity and wind skills. “Trainer” is an apt name for the red gun that is identical to my Opens.

It’s plausible sounding to me that TR could develop generally better wind reading skills than Open chasing a harder to earn clean, then, when those skills meet up with sufficient technical advances, TR is actually (in say 90% of weather) right there with Open.

 

[lawman29]

I believe a .308 in F open could be a winner at the 600 yard line !
Longer barrel life, less recoil , super easy to tune.
Hum now the wheels are turning in my head..lol

NOT... When the conditions are benign the SIXES will shoot out the x ring...

 

[sdean]

I believe a .308 in F open could be a winner at the 600 yard line !
Longer barrel life, less recoil , super easy to tune.
Hum now the wheels are turning in my head..lol

Less recoil than what? 6mm with 108 or 260ai with 140 or even 284 with 180 ?? To me longer barrel life would mean you were handicapped longer. Good luck

 

[sdean]

yes, at club matches I’m going to try them out. Like XTR alluded to, I’m wondering if TR wind requirements train a better level of sensitivity and wind skills. “Trainer” is an apt name for the red gun that is identical to my Opens.

It’s plausible sounding to me that TR could develop generally better wind reading skills than Open chasing a harder to earn clean, then, when those skills meet up with sufficient technical advances, TR is actually (in say 90% of weather) right there with Open.

I personally think one should decide on a cartridge and concentrate learning everything about it, including wind characteristics of the chosen bullet. There is little Holy Grail to chase. I do understand the urge to experiment.

 

[D-4297]

From a "newer" TR shooters perspective ; who also shoots occasionally in Open , I feel there are two factors involved between the two disciplines . Wind reading is relevant to both , but gun handling in TR is crucial , as the set-up does make it more difficult to attain that "locked-on" sight picture that seems to be more constant when shooting from a rest . The other is the ballistic differences between the rounds used in the two . You can make esoteric comparisons of different cartridge's , but if you put a low experienced shooter on a .308 TR gun , and then have that same shooter fire another "string" on a .284 Open gun , I'd almost be willing to wager the score on the Open gun will be higher , with a better X count . Why ? The Open gun is more stable in set-up , and the higher velocity round is less interfered with by the same relevant wind conditions . Mainly ; In my own opinion , I think the advancement in powder , bullets , and even primers , along with the fact that TR was the "beginnings" of the sport , and all the testing by shooters , and openly shared information , have allowed the TR shooters to , shall we say , close the gap . It's a long way from a two-legged , rubber-footed Bi-pod to a Phoenix , or a Duplin .

 

[CharlieNC]

When I changed my barrel so I could shoot high bc 90gr vs 80gr bullets my 500 and 600 yd scores increased significantly. No difference at 300 yd. Same rifle, bipod, bag, shooter, etc. You do the math.