Is Full Length Better?
- Thread starter coblenblueface
- Start date
Turbulent Turtle
F-TR competitor
Erik Cortina said:
Erik is dead on.
I also see that Win94ae did not read all the posts correctly, because in an earlier post on this thread, I did indeed explain how many firings I get from my cases and that I retire them because of primer pocket expansion. Perhaps Win94ae is too busy reading reloading manuals.
I'll make a simple addition here. During testing in the lab, I used to F/L virtually ALL the brass used for QC firings. It had to be used in any number of different guns (I routinely had a dozen or more 308 Win test barrels of diferent twists) so it had to chamber in all. Headspace in these guns (all chambered by the same 'smith) was kept very close. Even using the notoriously soft Federal Match cases, I often got 25 firings or more before a batch had to be tossed. These were fairly mild loads (40.7 of Varget was standard for both 168s and 175s) and the shoulder set back was the minimum I could get away with and still not have them binding in any of the test rifles. Brass life of up to 20 firings was routine, and very few died much quicker than that, usually do to needing to test with hotter loads and loosening primer pockets. Incipeint head separations did appear occasionally, but that was generally after I'd gotten more than accpetable life out of the cases.
No degradation in accuracy, and if anything, it improved as compared to N/S ammo. And without all the headaches that tend to go with Neck Sizing. Hornady may stick by the N/S argument, and that's their privelege. But after sizing, loading and firing somewhere between three and three point five million rounds in testing over the past 20+ years, I'll stick to Full Length, and Hornady can do what they may.
No degradation in accuracy, and if anything, it improved as compared to N/S ammo. And without all the headaches that tend to go with Neck Sizing. Hornady may stick by the N/S argument, and that's their privelege. But after sizing, loading and firing somewhere between three and three point five million rounds in testing over the past 20+ years, I'll stick to Full Length, and Hornady can do what they may.
I didn't know that. I thought when FL sizing u always just bring your die to the shell holder and make sure its tight. I thought the only way to change the head space of the full length die is from using shims or different thickness shell holders. I didn't realize it was that simple. LOL! so.......why do they make those things if you can just simply back off your FL die? Everyday something new ???
bigedp51
Win94ae said:
Dear Win94ae
I have been full length resizing the same Winchester 30-30 cases for over 35 years. Bragging about getting 80 reloads by neck sizing a 30-30 cartridge at 38,000 cup maximum chamber pressure isn't wisdom its simple physics.
I guess the next thing your going to tell us is your still driving your 1962 Corvair because you never go over 25 miles per hour and over stress the car.
bigedp51
stinnett1981 said:
stinnett1981
Some people prefer that the base of the reloading die makes hard contact with the shell holder, and that is why they have the custom height shell holders. Some people use a lubed case in the shell holder with the die lock ring loose and "center" the die in the threads at full ram extension and then tighten the lock ring on the die. By making hard contact with the die and shell holder any flexing or looseness in the press is eliminated and it is believed this achieves more accurate case alignment and less runout.
stinnett1981 & coblenblueface
The thing with reloading is - there are absolutes and there are rules of thumb which help guide you. IMO an absolute is to have tools to measure what you are doing. Most beginner reloading kits have one measurement tool - the powder measure, but the reality is when you neck size or FLS you are changing the case i.e. you need to measure what you are doing to the case. Tools to measure shoulder setback are relatively cheap....if I could afford no other case measurement tool this one I would get.
Some other observations
Typically neck sizing only will cause chambering issues at some point.
Don't confuse the FLS/NS case longevity debate with the FLS/NS accuracy debate, they are very much interlinked but can be considered separately.
Guys that FLS get extremely good accuracy (world record setting) and case life that surpasses their needs.
With modern actions and reloads, case life can be restricted to other weak points on the case i.e. the primer pockets become too loose long before head separation is an issue even with over sizing.
Always look to quantify any statements from someone, what they say is an issue may well be within your requirements and not a problem for you. e.g. I think Lapua state acceptable brass life is 10 reloads, heaps of guys that FLS are getting 20+ is that an issue?
To answer one of the questions directly - I use the Redding instant indicator tool to measure shoulder bump. For me it is fast and accurate. I use the Redding shell holders to manage shoulder bump. These are easy to use and consistent. You will find once you start to measure, that .002" on a tool doesn't equal .002" on the case each and every time because of the brass characteristics and technique used.
I wouldn't change your dies just yet - I would get tools to measure and start learning about what is actually happening, then start making choices about dies...
Good luck
The thing with reloading is - there are absolutes and there are rules of thumb which help guide you. IMO an absolute is to have tools to measure what you are doing. Most beginner reloading kits have one measurement tool - the powder measure, but the reality is when you neck size or FLS you are changing the case i.e. you need to measure what you are doing to the case. Tools to measure shoulder setback are relatively cheap....if I could afford no other case measurement tool this one I would get.
Some other observations
Typically neck sizing only will cause chambering issues at some point.
Don't confuse the FLS/NS case longevity debate with the FLS/NS accuracy debate, they are very much interlinked but can be considered separately.
Guys that FLS get extremely good accuracy (world record setting) and case life that surpasses their needs.
With modern actions and reloads, case life can be restricted to other weak points on the case i.e. the primer pockets become too loose long before head separation is an issue even with over sizing.
Always look to quantify any statements from someone, what they say is an issue may well be within your requirements and not a problem for you. e.g. I think Lapua state acceptable brass life is 10 reloads, heaps of guys that FLS are getting 20+ is that an issue?
To answer one of the questions directly - I use the Redding instant indicator tool to measure shoulder bump. For me it is fast and accurate. I use the Redding shell holders to manage shoulder bump. These are easy to use and consistent. You will find once you start to measure, that .002" on a tool doesn't equal .002" on the case each and every time because of the brass characteristics and technique used.
I wouldn't change your dies just yet - I would get tools to measure and start learning about what is actually happening, then start making choices about dies...
Good luck
stinnett1981 said:
I set up my die using the Redding shell holders as per the instructions.
For fired cases I measure each case to find the longest (base to datum). Note down this measurement. Working from the shell holder that gives the least bump I change shell holders until I get .001 - .002 bump. I then run all cases through this setting. For the first 3-4 firings I continue this process to ensure that I am not over/under sizing after that it pretty much settles down.
IMO trying to adjust the die by rotating it is too difficult when keeping within .002 max bump. Shims will do the same thing as the shell holders, I just don't like having to unscrew the die to adjust with a shim.
I do anneal every firing which changes brass characteristics a fair bit and affects resizing but that is a whole other debate.
Others that are more accuracy minded probably have a better approach but this works well for me and has proven to be very consistent with good brass life. I have won Regional matches simply because others had brass jam etc which disrupted flow enough to cost points.
bigedp51
stinnett1981 said:
Here I am typing away with my two dyslexic fingers and "SOMEONE" deletes his post and question, and everything I typed disappeared into the forums black hole.
Round two below. :
I'm at the other end of the spectrum from 6BRinNZ and use the shims in the photo below.
I center the die using a lubed case and the die making hard contact with the shell holder and then I tighten the lock ring. I then start thick with the shims and remove shims until the desired shoulder setback is achieved. I like the idea of the different size shell holders "BUT" the shims will fit every caliber and cost less when you load for many calibers.
Lol! I was typing from a smartphone while driving 75mph through traffic. I was gonna re do my posting at a safer time. looks like no need for that now. Nice illustrations! I bet you could make one hell of a power point presentation!
bigedp51
stinnett1981 said:
If you could see me type you would understand, I'm up to 60 words an hour now. :'(
I normally only get that mad when bozo699 tells people to lube their cartridges to fireform them.
P.S. I have Peter Rabbit and his friend looking for you. :
bozo699
Gold $$ Contributor
bigedp51 said:Win94ae said:
Dear Win94ae
I have been full length resizing the same Winchester 30-30 cases for over 35 years. Bragging about getting 80 reloads by neck sizing a 30-30 cartridge at 38,000 cup maximum chamber pressure isn't wisdom its simple physics.
I guess the next thing your going to tell us is your still driving your 1962 Corvair because you never go over 25 miles per hour and over stress the car.
For the first time ever Ed,.........I say spot on sir
Wayne.
Actually Frank, that was an average. Often 500-600 rounds some days, and it was six days a week more often than not. Trust me, it gets OLD.
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