Is Full Length Better?

[jo191145]

I personally like the Redding S series FL or neck bushing dies.
Many folks claim bushing dies give more run out (concentrity) (crooked brass)
I'm one of the few shooters on this forum that do not measure for concentricity.
Never found a reason too. Guns shoot just fine without it.
I use bushing dies because I do not want an expander ball and lube inside my case necks.
I don't want that carbon inside the neck disturbed by foreign objects. Nylon brush maybe, not always.

The bushing dies also work the brass of the necks less. In most cases quite a bit less. Its usually the necks that get sized the most whether FL or neck sizing.
Less working equals less hardening equals more consistency. JMO's

 

[Luke_NL]

Coblen,

Although I have no experience with Redding to speak of, I am very (very) pleased with the Forster dies (which came highly recommended by these fora, so I took the plunge). I use them in conjunction with a Forster Co-Ax press, and I picked up those and more at SpaceCoastBullets in Melbourne, Fl. (Well worth checking out!) Seeing how you are in Germany (I'm Dutch) you might want to check out Grauwolf Wiederladen (not sure if allowed to post links?), a german mail order store that carries Forster supplies at very reasonable prices. You get what you pay for though, so don't expect cheap.

 

[bigedp51]

coblenblueface

More inaccurate ammunition is reloaded because the expander button is locked down off center than any other reason.

This is why some people use the bushing dies without the expander button.

Any reloading die is only as good as the person using the die, and gauges will let you know the quality of your work.

I have three different type manufactures of dies for my .223/5.56 and if you have bad misaligned cases no die no matter how much it costs will fix the case.

Learn good reloading techniques with your RCBS dies first, and then later decide if more expensive dies are what you need.

Setting Proper Headpace on Resized Cases
by Germán A. Salazar
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2009/08/reloading-headspace.html

Preparing Cases for Long-Range Accuracy
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/complete-precision-case-prep/

O-Rings on Dies May Reduce Run-Out
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/o-rings-on-dies-may-reduce-run-out/

Reloading: Two-Step Sizing and Concentricity
http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/04/reloading-two-step-sizing-and.html

 

[Shynloco]

Coblenblueface,
After reading all the posts, heres my take on your issue. First off, I shoot and reload for several calibers of rifle that I shoot for paper accuracy. I see you shoot an older Swedish Mauser which is the basis for the Ruger Rifles of which I have have two and reload for three. Know this...the conventional wisdom as portrayed in much that was suggested, has exceptions. And what I've found out over the years, is that the Swedish Mauser IN CERTAIN CALIBERS simply creates issue such as increased pressures, that Neck Sizing won't get it and causes the very problem that you described, can't close the bolt. For instance, I used to shoot and reload for my Ruger 22-250 and would use the Sierra Manual recommended loads and could only get one Neck Sizing out of the brass (Lapua, Federal, you name it I tried it) before I had to FL size it. I even tried using a Body Die and Competition Shell Holders and got maybe one more reload before the bolt refused to be close without FL Sizing. And this was again using the recommended amount of powder with little to no change regardless which brass I used. And the max number of reloads I could get out of my brass was 6 MAX. After that, signs of head separation started to show up that might suggest I had excessive headspace. So I had my gunsmith (of 45 years and who builds custom competition rifles) checked the rifle for excessive headspace and the go-no go gauge as well as other measuring devices and it checked out just fine. Bottom line, no matter what we tried that rifle was totally independent and what worked in most other rifles, wouldn't cure this baby. After two years of trying, I gave up and had a barrel change done and the rifle was coverted to a 6.5 caliber that shoots incredibly good groups. Only problem she never got over, was that I FL size each time, but can only still get 6 reloads out of Lapua brass and there are still no signs of excessive pressure, even when I mic the expended primers looking for expansion and flatted primers.
Now I know the feeling about spending money (sometimes that I can't afford to do being retired), but it is a fact of life with certain rifles that will not go along with the "conventional program" as suggested by many of the posts preceding mine. I think it safe to say that everyone will agree with the old adage, what works in one rifle, won't necessarily work in another no matter if is of the same caliber and manufacturer. Simply a fact of life I learned in more that 50 years of shooting weapons of all sorts. That's not to say you shouldn't try what other suggest. But what I am saying is you have to be patient and trying all the different combinations until you find something that your rifle will accept. I doubt you'll ever get past the issue of "eating brass quicker than other caliber." My Ruger .308 (just converted to a Benchrest Target model) and my son's Ruger 30-06 allow the brass to last alot longer, but not nearly as long a my 6mmbr Savage model. But there too I FL resize each time as my groups have proven to shoot better than by just Neck sizing. BTW, I also have removed the expander ball from my FL dies and use expander mandrels that I've found give me better better and more even neck tension for better groups.
Sorry for the long winded post and hope I got my message across that might help to solve your issue for better accuracy and pure fun shooting.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

First myth: full sizing will reduce case life - not true if the die is set up for proper headspace - cases fatigue fail in the neck - full sizing does not contribute to this any more than neck sizing.

Sure, cases can fail at the neck, but they also fail at the head; it is called "case head separation." and it comes from overworking the case head by full length sizing.

I have 30-30 cases that have been neck-sized 80+ times, still going strong and precise.

Just not exactly true, this can happen when you don't have the tools and knowledge to set the f/l die up correctly or if your die does't match your chamber correctly but if you have a quality f/l die and set it up correctly the cases will last just as long as neck sized cases and in some instances even longer!
Wayne.

Wayne is correct, of course.

But let's get real here. In my experience the main reason my cases have a limited life is because of primer pocket expansion. I shoot competitively in F-class LR and virtually all my reloading is for my match ammo. I start with a batch of virgin brass from the same lot and then I load them up, fire them and then handload them and do it all over again. My loads are stout because I am shooting at 1000 yards and want the highest accurate velocity possible. After 8 loads the primer pockets are somewhat loose and after 10 loads, the primers are going in with very little resistance. By that time a new barrel is going to be fitted and the brass is retired with the old barrel.

I don't lose brass to head or tail separation, or split necks or whatever, it's primer pocket expansion that kills them.

As for dies, I am a very happy long time user of Redding S-type bushing dies from which I remove the expander ball. Using such a die minimizes the work done on the neck. And on top of that, I anneal my brass every other load.

 

[jo191145]

Shynloco, Interesting post.
Would'nt that phenomonon you described be attributed to a flexing action? Or at least bad lug/action fit?
If the bolt is allowed rearward travel due to either of these conditions you in effect get increased headspace during firing.
Subsequently you'll be required to bump the shoulders back excessivly to fit the chamber in a static condition. Just wonderin.

 

[KevinThomas]

coblenblueface,

If you can, stop on by the Lapua booth at the IWA show in March. It's in Nuremburg, as always. Be more than happy to have a nice long chat with you about this, and our brass. Jut for the record, we expect to see a minimum of ten firings out of our brass, using normal Full Length sizing, just as long as the loads conform to normal (CIP) pressure limits for the cartridge involved, and the cases aren't worked excessively during the resizing process. That's normally the result a die being of too tight in the neck area, and depending on an expander ball to open it back up after sizing to the proper I.D.. Bushing dies are a major step forward here, in that you can select a bushing that sizes the neck to the correct diameter, without over working it at the same time.

With the use of bushing dies and an expander that barely touches the inside of the neck, headspace gages that help to keep you from setting the shoulders back more than .001" or .002", annealing (if done correctly), you may get several times this many firings out of our cases.

Stop on by! Be more than happy to talk with you about all this in greater detail.

 

[bozo699]

First myth: full sizing will reduce case life - not true if the die is set up for proper headspace - cases fatigue fail in the neck - full sizing does not contribute to this any more than neck sizing.

Sure, cases can fail at the neck, but they also fail at the head; it is called "case head separation." and it comes from overworking the case head by full length sizing.

I have 30-30 cases that have been neck-sized 80+ times, still going strong and precise.

Just not exactly true, this can happen when you don't have the tools and knowledge to set the f/l die up correctly or if your die does't match your chamber correctly but if you have a quality f/l die and set it up correctly the cases will last just as long as neck sized cases and in some instances even longer!
Wayne.

Wayne is correct, of course.

But let's get real here. In my experience the main reason my cases have a limited life is because of primer pocket expansion. I shoot competitively in F-class LR and virtually all my reloading is for my match ammo. I start with a batch of virgin brass from the same lot and then I load them up, fire them and then handload them and do it all over again. My loads are stout because I am shooting at 1000 yards and want the highest accurate velocity possible. After 8 loads the primer pockets are somewhat loose and after 10 loads, the primers are going in with very little resistance. By that time a new barrel is going to be fitted and the brass is retired with the old barrel.

I don't lose brass to head or tail separation, or split necks or whatever, it's primer pocket expansion that kills them.

As for dies, I am a very happy long time user of Redding S-type bushing dies from which I remove the expander ball. Using such a die minimizes the work done on the neck. And on top of that, I anneal my brass every other load.

I agree 100% my primer pockets always go south before I ever loose a case due to separation issues, as a matter of a fact I haven't lost a case due to any kind of separation in years, My competition rifle I loose them from wore out primer pockets and my hunting rifles I catch brass getting thin I discard the whole lot and start over.
Wayne.

 

[BoydAllen]

In my experience, there are still a lot of fellows out there who do not have the proper tool to measure how much the shoulders of their cases are being set back during sizing, and it is the improper setup of FL dies that is the reason for cases developing incipient separations. Given the cost of good cases, not buying the proper tool to make this measurement is false economy. When the shoulder is set back too far, the case is driven forward during firing, creating space between its head and the bolt face, and as the pressure rises, the friction between the body of the case and the chamber keeps it from sliding back to the bolt face. As a result, the brass is stretched just above the solid part of the head, when the pressure exceeds what the case can support without yielding. This happens at least once on every case, because of the normal lack of fit of a new case, but if the FL die is properly adjusted it is not a problem after that. If the die is not properly adjusted, repeated stretching of the case from a number of firings and FL sizings, will cause progressive thinning of the case, above the head, and eventually there will be an incipient or actual separation, the latter if the signs are ignored. What I have described has to do with rimless cases of average construction, such as the 6.5x 55, which I have spent quite a bit of time loading, for a couple of Swedish Mausers, and one civilian rifle. I loaded them, all at pretty high pressures, and at one time did a lot of shooting with them. It is an excellent caliber. I have also done quite a bit of loading for a 30-30 and that is a much different case, with its own individual issues and characteristics. These days, if I were going to load much for that caliber, I would probably use a bushing FL die, and choose a bushing such that I could hardly fell the passage of the expander through the neck. Years back, when I was doing most of my work with 6.5x55, I used Norma brass, and had the neck of a Redding FL die opened up by the manufacturer, so that there was just enough sizing of the neck, but no more. Years later, I got some Remington cases, and their thinner necks were not adequately sized by that modified die.

 

[bigedp51]

coblenblueface

Traditionally military rifles have chambers that are slightly larger in diameter and have longer headspaced chambers than their civilian counterparts.

In this respect your father-in-law is "generally" correct that your cases will last longer when neck sized only.

The first problem with "large" military chambers is that commercial cases are not made to military specifications and might not be as strong. Traditionally military cases are made thicker to handle the added stress of being fired in these larger chambers.

The second problem is our resizing dies are made for smaller commercial chambers and you have a "fat" and "longer" military chamber.

What this means is you are going to have to adjust your full length die for the minimum of resizing to fit your rifles chamber.

You will not want the resizing die to make hard contact with the shell holder because this will push the shoulder of the case back too far and shorten case life.

On my military rifle cases I use the RCBS Case Mastering Gauge to check for thinning and stretching in the base web area, especially after the first firing.

I also find out the exact headspace of my chamber, measure the length of new cases and the fired length of these cases. I also measure the base diameter of new cases and measure the cases again in the base after firing for expansion

I collected the .303 British Enfield Rifle and these rifles have the most difference between military and commercial chamber dimensions of any rifle I have ever reloaded for. In short "some" military chambers are like parking a VW Beetle in a blimp hanger. :'(

And not all cartridge cases are created equal, below are the two best brands of .303 cases for reloading. BUT there is a big difference in base diameter between these manufactures and both cases were fired in the same Enfield rifle. The odd thing is you never hear anyone complain about headspace or short case life if they use Greek HXP cases.

With your Lupua Brass you have the best brass cases money can buy, BUT you will need to re-adjust "how" you resize your cases for your Swedish Mauser and its larger military chamber. You may decide to fireform your cases at a lower pressure to blow out the shoulder and prevent stretching in the web area.

The .308 cases below were full length resized making hard contact with the shell holder (camover) until the cases failed. By adjusting the resizing die to "NOT" push or bump the shoulder back too far the cases below might have lasted longer before failure

Listen to Mr. BoydAllen, he knows what he is talking about and has experience shooting the same type and caliber rifle that you have, the rest of us are just guessing.

 

[Mattm0812]

Coblen,

Although I have no experience with Redding to speak of, I am very (very) pleased with the Forster dies (which came highly recommended by these fora, so I took the plunge). I use them in conjunction with a Forster Co-Ax press, and I picked up those and more at SpaceCoastBullets in Melbourne, Fl. (Well worth checking out!) Seeing how you are in Germany (I'm Dutch) you might want to check out Grauwolf Wiederladen (not sure if allowed to post links?), a german mail order store that carries Forster supplies at very reasonable prices. You get what you pay for though, so don't expect cheap.

That's my local reloading shop too.

 

[bigedp51]

coblenblueface

P.S. Don't listen to bozo699, the reason he was gone from this forum so long was because he tried to fire the "rifle" in the photo below from his shoulder and ended up in the hospital.

(He lubed the cartridge and the bolt thrust nailed him)

Below, "Doss Fire-Splitting Louden Boomer" ;D

 

[bozo699]

coblenblueface

P.S. Don't listen to bozo699, the reason he was gone from this forum so long was because he tried to fire the "rifle" in the photo below from his shoulder and ended up in the hospital.

(He lubed the cartridge and the bolt thrust nailed him)

Below, "Doss Fire-Splitting Louden Boomer" ;D

Hey Ed glad to see you haven't lost your humor,....my shoulder is just about healed up now so watch out
Wayne.

 

[K22]

I believe that most of the confusion regarding full length sizing stems from a failure to set up the die properly to avoid over sizing. This thread covers that quite completely so no more needs to be said on that issue - IF YOU FULL SIZE YOU NEED THE PROPER TOOLS TO SET THE DIE FOR CORRECT HEADSPACE.

When I first got into this game I use to believe that neck sizing produced the most accurate reloads because that's what everyone told me. I have a whole rack of neck dies to prove it. I would occasionally run into chambering problems after repeated neck sizings- the 22 250 being especially sensitive to this issue and a my Weatherby Super varmint master 223.

It wasn't until I got my first custom rifle that I learn from an expert, my gunsmith who had been building custom rifles and reloading for over 30 years. He taught me how to properly size brass and explained why full length resizing would produce the most consistent reloads with no reduction in case life.

To be honest, after switching to 100% full sizing (the proper way) several years ago I haven't noticed any significant increase in accuracy with full sized cases. I also have not experienced any reduction in case life. What really appeals to me about full sizing is the trouble free chambering without any apparent loss in accuracy or case life.

Even if you neck size at some point you'll need to full size for most cartridges so learn how to do it properly.

 

[Win94ae]

but if you have a quality f/l die and set it up correctly the cases will last just as long as neck sized cases and in some instances even longer!
Wayne.

There is the money qoute, That more than implies that I'm correct.
If you buy all the top dollar bells and whistles, then use them exactly right every single time, you will match the run-of-the-mill neck sizer's case life.

All this and no one mentions how many firings they get from their cases, except me.

This is reloading 101, I brought actual data from an expert source, all the reloading manuals I've read, concur with me.

 

[bozo699]

but if you have a quality f/l die and set it up correctly the cases will last just as long as neck sized cases and in some instances even longer!
Wayne.

There is the money qoute, That more than implies that I'm correct.
If you buy all the top dollar bells and whistles, then use them exactly right every single time, you will match the run-of-the-mill neck sizer's case life.

All this and no one mentions how many firings they get from their cases, except me.

This is reloading 101, I brought actual data from an expert source, all the reloading manuals I've read, concur with me.

I read Tony Boyer's book ( he is the authority on accuracy ) And I don't remember that part about how neck sizing makes more accurate ammo or that it makes it last longer! If you feel that it makes your little low pressure 3030 cases last longer then I am happy for you, but I am here to tell you right now ALL of the world class shooters that I know ALWAYS full length size there cases. There all running full house loads and neck sizing just wouldn't work! Neck sizing just doesn't even make sense when you think about it,...the key to accuracy is consistency,...if you f/l size size each and every time everything is the same,..ie...
( Consistency ) you have NO consistency with neck sizing only! that was 1950's bench rest mentality that even MOST bench rest shooters don't even use anymore! for experienced re loaders this is just common knowledge. However I encourage all you guy's to neck size only,..especially the guy's I compete against!
Wayne.

 

[Lapua40X]

There are a lot of good suggestions here. Allow me to offer one that I don't see.
Your brass cases have a limited life expectancy. That life expectancy doesn't follow a smooth straight line on any brass case life expectancy "actuarial" table. X number of rounds fired an equal number of times will all fail, eventually, but not at precisely the same time.
I'd recommend you thank your father-in-law for the information, continue to full length resize your brass and enjoy your sport. Appears to me like your full length resizing has already proven to be superior in providing the proper head spacing when compared to fire forming/neck sizing. If it ain't broke; don't' fix it.
Wishing you good shooting ......

 

[stinnett1981]

How are those Redding Competition Shell Holders??? I have the Hornady Headspace Gauge and I measured 2 25-06 cases. The first case was ran through a Lee FL die and the other case was fired from my 25-06. The headspace difference is .008. I understand you only want to move the shoulders back .001 or so. FL sizing every time at .008 would wear out the case fast and decrease accuracy.

I only been neck sizing with a Lee collet die with all my rifles and when the cases gets tight I FL size. So......... I been looking at the Redding comp shell holders and been wanting to buy a more "high end" FL die. Reason why....because I want to reload the "proper" way while increasing accuracy and case life all at the same time. Any feedback would be great. Thanks guys!

Coblenblueface, I hope these questions I asked helps you out too!

 

[bozo699]

How are those Redding Competition Shell Holders??? I have the Hornady Headspace Gauge and I measured 2 25-06 cases. The first case was ran through a Lee FL die and the other case was fired from my 25-06. The headspace difference is .008. I understand you only want to move the shoulders back .001 or so. FL sizing every time at .008 would wear out the case fast and decrease accuracy.

I only been neck sizing with a Lee collet die with all my rifles and when the cases gets tight I FL size. So......... I been looking at the Redding comp shell holders and been wanting to buy a more "high end" FL die. Reason why....because I want to reload the "proper" way while increasing accuracy and case life all at the same time. Any feedback would be great. Thanks guys!

Coblenblueface, I hope these questions I asked helps you out too!

Stinnett,
I mean this with all the respect in the world,...why don't you set your f/l die to set it back .001 or.002 instead of .008 I think this is why people like that win94 guy thinks neck sizing is better, they read the very vage instructions that come with the die and then there mad because it oversizes there brass, I mean for instance they say turn the die down until it touches the shell holder then 3/4 of a turn more,..................Really?.........thant is very precise instructions isn't it? I have a better Idea, shoot a single case 4 or 5 times and do your famous neck size only then take some measuring equipment designed for measuring case shoulder bump and start screwing the die down until you get the desired bump, it is a little more detailed then that but that is the jist of it.
Wayne.

 

[Erik Cortina]

but if you have a quality f/l die and set it up correctly the cases will last just as long as neck sized cases and in some instances even longer!
Wayne.

There is the money qoute, That more than implies that I'm correct.
If you buy all the top dollar bells and whistles, then use them exactly right every single time, you will match the run-of-the-mill neck sizer's case life.

All this and no one mentions how many firings they get from their cases, except me.

This is reloading 101, I brought actual data from an expert source, all the reloading manuals I've read, concur with me.

Reloading manuals? How many competition shooters do you know that use loads from a Reloading Manual?

But you are correct, what you do is called reloading 101. ;D