is a bull barrel really needed
- Thread starter cocopuff
- Start date
The bigger the barrel it is the less it will heat up.And it should be stiffer.
It depends on the application. If you are shooting f class matches then a heavy barrel will help with recoil and heat management. You don't necessarily need a strait tube, but a heavier profile helps.
If you are field carrying the rifle, and will only take a few shots a day, hunting profiles work just fine. My M788 .243Win will shoot five shots into half MOA with Nosler BTs. I doubt it would hold that over a 25 shot match without wondering due to heat but it's way easier to maneuver and stalk with.
If you are field carrying the rifle, and will only take a few shots a day, hunting profiles work just fine. My M788 .243Win will shoot five shots into half MOA with Nosler BTs. I doubt it would hold that over a 25 shot match without wondering due to heat but it's way easier to maneuver and stalk with.
Albany Mountain
Silver $$ Contributor
Comparing sporter weight barrels, I would think initially that for 3-5 shots, light and heavy can go hand in hand. However in continued shooting the heat created is dissipated more due to the mass and battles with sighting over the barrel with heat waves coming off of it are less in a heavy barrel. There are ways to deal with this (mirage bands etc) but with the added stiffness and support from the heavier mass, most will shoot the heavier barrels versus a sporter weight.
I have shot a older Remington varmit over the course and it did well. Didn't place exacting demands in it and it did well in position shooting.
I have shot a older Remington varmit over the course and it did well. Didn't place exacting demands in it and it did well in position shooting.
If I were building a rifle that's singular purpose was rested target shooting at or under 300 yards I would probably go with a strait cylinder barrel in the 22" range, then bed (or glue) it into a flat button stock with some weight to it. Given the choice between 6br and 223 for this, no question I would go 6br and would probably shoot flat base bullets in a slow-ish twist barrel. 223 can shoot very impressive groups, and if you can't have the firing pin bushed you may go the 223 route, but I have never seen a 6br shoot poorly.
Take this with a grain of salt. I am not, nor have I ever been a benchrest shooter, but you are describing short range benchrest so that is how I would build if so inclined.
If you ever have to handle the rifle off a rest, disregard everything I just said.
Take this with a grain of salt. I am not, nor have I ever been a benchrest shooter, but you are describing short range benchrest so that is how I would build if so inclined.
If you ever have to handle the rifle off a rest, disregard everything I just said.
Thats excatly what I am doing..But for this purpose will the heavy varmint barrel,be just as good as a bull barrel..I kind of hate to have to open the barrel channel on the stock..If you know what I mean..I realize the bull will take a bit longer to heat up and also longer to cool down,if it is stainless...Am also thinking of going with a chrome moloy barrel instead of stainless..Whats your opinion on this as well..Thanks..
This makes no sense.hunter243sgk said:
The barrels are exposed to the same heat & the heavier profile will retain it longer as it's more heated mass. It was suggested that thinner barrels release heat faster(causing mirage issues) which supports my point.
And when a barrel wonders it's because of stress, not profile. Cut rifling should remove that for you.
A heavier barrel helps with recoil & handling provided you still attain good balance in the system. A heavier barrel is more forgiving while off tune(if the build is strong enough for it), but that won't beat a thinner barrel or any other well in tune. And thinner barrels are easy to see tune with because they're less forgiving otherwise.
Basically, there a pros & cons to plan through.
I would give 24cal a couple more inches in barrel(at least) over 22cal to restore reasonable muzzle pressure. This, combined with the larger 24cal bore would reduce some of the stiffness that you could get in same weight of shorter 22cal barrel.
I wouldn't consider either cartridge[223/6br] competitive at point blank ranges for hot grouping. That is, they're nothing like [6PPC/30br]. You didn't mention the format.
I don't care if it makes sence or not I just went from a sporter barrel to a full 1" at the crown and it does not heat up like the pencil thin barrel did.mikecr said:
I'm sure you mean the heat(the same heat) reaches the heavy barrel surface slower and at a lower temp per area.
It is the same heat applied regardless of barrel profile.
With one(the thinner profile) you can feel the heat at it's surface very quickly, where it's releasing heat quickly. With the other(heavier profile), the heat is stored and dissipating in more metal, and doesn't feel as hot on the surface.
Now, a larger surface has the potential to release heat more efficiently than small. But this attribute only applies once the surfaces reach the same temp -for that comparison.
You're convinced the larger surface doesn't get as hot, and in practice you're right.
This doesn't mean the barrel isn't heating up(absorbing the heat). It is, and it's storing the heat longer, releasing it more slowly.
This is just what I'd want with a button rifled barrel for hot group shooting. Not what I'd want, in itself, with a cut rifled barrel. No advantage in it.
Keep in mind, the more metal, the greater it's dimensions change with temperature(including the bore dimensions). This is where sighters/warmups are vital for many BR guns prior to shooting for record. Their heavy barrels need to be brought to stable, every time.
It is the same heat applied regardless of barrel profile.
With one(the thinner profile) you can feel the heat at it's surface very quickly, where it's releasing heat quickly. With the other(heavier profile), the heat is stored and dissipating in more metal, and doesn't feel as hot on the surface.
Now, a larger surface has the potential to release heat more efficiently than small. But this attribute only applies once the surfaces reach the same temp -for that comparison.
You're convinced the larger surface doesn't get as hot, and in practice you're right.
This doesn't mean the barrel isn't heating up(absorbing the heat). It is, and it's storing the heat longer, releasing it more slowly.
This is just what I'd want with a button rifled barrel for hot group shooting. Not what I'd want, in itself, with a cut rifled barrel. No advantage in it.
Keep in mind, the more metal, the greater it's dimensions change with temperature(including the bore dimensions). This is where sighters/warmups are vital for many BR guns prior to shooting for record. Their heavy barrels need to be brought to stable, every time.
So do the lighter barrels. The heavy barrel tends to stay more stable once to temp too, as the extra weight acts as a heat sink. I believe, though we'd need go air gauge hot barrels to prove, that the cylinder barrel will also hold the bore dimensions better as it both heats as cools, as well as having less chance of bending to the heat as it heats and cools.
Also, there is less chance for you to start with an uneven diameter in the bore, though most top barrel makers won't cut the rifling and lap until after the barrel has been profiled to avoid opening up the bore from removal of the metal when profiling.
I'm not sure if you do your own barrel work or not but next time you have a premium blank see just how un-straight that tube is when you're indexing the bore to cut threads or the chamber. It's hard to believe any rifle shoots watching the non-working end.
In the end, I don't think there will be much difference between a varmint and strait cylinder, especially inside 300 yards.
Whatever the OP decides, he better order it before high power season starts
Also, there is less chance for you to start with an uneven diameter in the bore, though most top barrel makers won't cut the rifling and lap until after the barrel has been profiled to avoid opening up the bore from removal of the metal when profiling.
I'm not sure if you do your own barrel work or not but next time you have a premium blank see just how un-straight that tube is when you're indexing the bore to cut threads or the chamber. It's hard to believe any rifle shoots watching the non-working end.
In the end, I don't think there will be much difference between a varmint and strait cylinder, especially inside 300 yards.
Whatever the OP decides, he better order it before high power season starts
Well unless the bore was lapped at operating temperature, it's not going to be the same at a different temperature. Could be better or worse. For instance, it may seem intuitive that a heated bore expands. But it can't expand outward while the surrounding metal is still cool, so it shrinks at first. This can work to advantage with a hunting barrel, where it's button rifled and contoured after lapping(sadly). It can be detrimental with a hunting gun whose cut rifled/lapped bore is perfect on the shelf. In this case it's better(for follow-up shots) to go with a profile that has the muzzle smallest.
For competition, where everything but the wind is preconditioned, including sighters/warm-ups, and weight 'limits' aren't really, I would go heavy Palma, cut rifled. Not bull though, unless very heavily fluted. That would probably still have me putting more weight in the buttstock for balance that shoots.
For competition, where everything but the wind is preconditioned, including sighters/warm-ups, and weight 'limits' aren't really, I would go heavy Palma, cut rifled. Not bull though, unless very heavily fluted. That would probably still have me putting more weight in the buttstock for balance that shoots.
cocopuff said:
The term "bull" barrel is very generic....just take a look at the bbl. mfgr's contour list. I believe you are referring to an uncontoured (straight) bbl.
Also, it is unclear as to what you refer to as a "heavy varmint" bbl.. Do you mean like a Rem. Varmint bbl or an true heavy varmint bbl. as used in IBS/ NBRSA competition?
In either case, for your purposes, I would go with a tapered bbl. as opposed to a straight bbl.
Unless you are going to just paint the exterior of the bbl., the cost of stn.stl. will actually be cheaper than bluing, tef-coating, or whatever.....and unless you do melonite, you still have an uncoated bore. The thermal conductivity of stn. stl. has a lower value than CM, but you will be hard pressed to tell the difference.
In my experience the heavy barrels dissiapates and absorbs the heat better.In doing so the barrel does not heat up as fast as my sporter barrel did.When I was shooting with the sporter barrel I could only shoot 3 or 4 time and the barrel would be hot and I do mean hot(243w)Now shooting a 243ai which is a hotter load and it does not heat up no where near the same.The new barrel is a 28" straight taper to 1".As for the op I don't think he needs this big of a barrel.
I Shoot field rifle competition out to 200 yards in Australia.
We typically use varmint style rifles with the total rifle weight limit being 5KG.
Saying that, while waiting for my rifle to be built (with a Remington varmint profile barrel) I have been using an old remington 700 ADL in .222 which has the factory sporter barrel. It has been bedded, floated and has my Jewel trigger fitted.
It shoots 0.25 MOA with a mistreated pitted barrel (a testament to the quality or Remington from the 80's...... and my bedding job 8)) and in competition it performed beyond my expectations. I actually won comps with it up against heavy barreled custom built rifles.
It was used in rapid fire courses and got so hot it burnt me on a 40 deg C day, which is 100+ F for the imperially challenged
By the time i got to the 200 yard course shooting sitting, resting off my arm holding a pole, I was still able to put up 2" groups.
In my experience, a heavier barrel heats up slower but cools down slower. If you have a rubbish barrel, it will wander as it heats due to un-relieved, or other stress.
The weight helps with stability, and as mentioned, the slowing of the heating process.
I recon i f you built 2 technically identical rifles with identical (impossible) barrels, one heavy and one light, you would see very little difference in group size once a resonant load was found for each rifle.
You need to decide what you want to use the rifle for and build it to suit. This will determine barrel length and weight.
My advice is to buy the best quality barrel you can afford and have someone who knows what they are doing (good reputation) fit it to the rifle.
The heavier the barrel, the easier it is to shoot off a rest, but no fun to carry around in the sticks.
My 2c
We typically use varmint style rifles with the total rifle weight limit being 5KG.
Saying that, while waiting for my rifle to be built (with a Remington varmint profile barrel) I have been using an old remington 700 ADL in .222 which has the factory sporter barrel. It has been bedded, floated and has my Jewel trigger fitted.
It shoots 0.25 MOA with a mistreated pitted barrel (a testament to the quality or Remington from the 80's...... and my bedding job 8)) and in competition it performed beyond my expectations. I actually won comps with it up against heavy barreled custom built rifles.
It was used in rapid fire courses and got so hot it burnt me on a 40 deg C day, which is 100+ F for the imperially challenged
By the time i got to the 200 yard course shooting sitting, resting off my arm holding a pole, I was still able to put up 2" groups.
In my experience, a heavier barrel heats up slower but cools down slower. If you have a rubbish barrel, it will wander as it heats due to un-relieved, or other stress.
The weight helps with stability, and as mentioned, the slowing of the heating process.
I recon i f you built 2 technically identical rifles with identical (impossible) barrels, one heavy and one light, you would see very little difference in group size once a resonant load was found for each rifle.
You need to decide what you want to use the rifle for and build it to suit. This will determine barrel length and weight.
My advice is to buy the best quality barrel you can afford and have someone who knows what they are doing (good reputation) fit it to the rifle.
The heavier the barrel, the easier it is to shoot off a rest, but no fun to carry around in the sticks.
My 2c
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I believe that the question was about a Bull (taken to mean untapered cylinder) vs. a VARMINT weight barrel (taken to be similar to something like a Remington Varmint Special contour). I think that there are multiple considerations here. Accuracy is a weakest link thing, and it is common for me to see fellows worrying about something that will not have a significant effect on their particular situation, instead of working on the weakest part of their particular program. One thing that I would like to know is the level of accuracy that will be required to win the matches that the rifle is being built for. Also, I would like to know about such things as bench quality, the use of wind flags, and the quality of rests, as well as the trigger weight of the rifle in question, and how it is scoped. Depending on the answers, it is entirely possible that some things would be lost in the noise, including the possible difference in the accuracy potentials of the two barrel contours. Some years back, I asked a nationally known benchrest shooter and gunsmith if he thought that short range benchrest barrels need to be as heavy as they are. He told me that when he and a friend (equally qualified) were stationed where light stocks were not easily obtainable, that they had shot lighter barrels with good results. I took him at his word. To wind this up, I would direct the questioner to the light varmint, and sporter records, both sets having been shot with barrels that are lighter than full bull.
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
300 yards is a "tweener" distance. In lighter conditions, you can do,well with a slow twist and stubby bullets. In rough weather, a faster twist and higher BC bullets can be an advantage.
Another consideration is the rules that you are shooting under. If you are allowed sighters during your record string, that's one thing. No sighters and "grip and rip" is quite another.
Without knowing more, my general rule of thumb would be to build the heaviest rifle that was: A) Practical and B) Within the rules.
I'd also build with the widest forearm that my rest would handle and the longest forearm that I could manage. Again, within the governing rules, of course.
My personal 300 yard rifle is a 10 twist straight 6 BR. It is built with a Brux Max heavy varmint profile on a Borden BR stock. It comes in at 13 lbs, 7 oz, by the skin of its teeth, with its 12-42 NF BR. I shoot Berger 90 gr boat tails in it.
Below is a 100 yard target from a VHA match where we shoot 100, 300 and 400 yards with no sighters during the record period. No wind flags. I started shooting on the bottom/right target and proceeded counter-clockwise winding up on the center. You can see where I lose the condition. It's predictibity like that that will teach you how to shoot.
Another consideration is the rules that you are shooting under. If you are allowed sighters during your record string, that's one thing. No sighters and "grip and rip" is quite another.
Without knowing more, my general rule of thumb would be to build the heaviest rifle that was: A) Practical and B) Within the rules.
I'd also build with the widest forearm that my rest would handle and the longest forearm that I could manage. Again, within the governing rules, of course.
My personal 300 yard rifle is a 10 twist straight 6 BR. It is built with a Brux Max heavy varmint profile on a Borden BR stock. It comes in at 13 lbs, 7 oz, by the skin of its teeth, with its 12-42 NF BR. I shoot Berger 90 gr boat tails in it.
Below is a 100 yard target from a VHA match where we shoot 100, 300 and 400 yards with no sighters during the record period. No wind flags. I started shooting on the bottom/right target and proceeded counter-clockwise winding up on the center. You can see where I lose the condition. It's predictibity like that that will teach you how to shoot.
GSPV said:300 yards is a "tweener" distance. In lighter conditions, you can do,well with a slow twist and stubby bullets. In rough weather, a faster twist and higher BC bullets can be an advantage.
Another consideration is the rules that you are shooting under. If you are allowed sighters during your record string, that's one thing. No sighters and "grip and rip" is quite another.
Without knowing more, my general rule of thumb would be to build the heaviest rifle that was: A) Practical and B) Within the rules.
I'd also build with the widest forearm that my rest would handle and the longest forearm that I could manage. Again, within the governing rules, of course.
My personal 300 yard rifle is a 10 twist straight 6 BR. It is built with a Brux Max heavy varmint profile on a Borden BR stock. It comes in at 13 lbs, 7 oz, by the skin of its teeth, with its 12-42 NF BR. I shoot Berger 90 gr boat tails in it.
Below is a 100 yard target from a VHA match where we shoot 100, 300 and 400 yards with no sighters during the record period. No wind flags. I started shooting on the bottom/right target and proceeded counter-clockwise winding up on the center. You can see where I lose the condition. It's predictibity like that that will teach you how to shoot.
Wow! Very nice shooting Mr Greg! Do you by chance have a picture of the rifle? Whats your barrel length and velocity with the 90s?
Also, what brand of barrels do you prefer?
Thank you sir.
Blake.
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