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Interesting Tuner Results

Testing is required...HOWEVER....be careful.....you can wear out a very good barrel "testing"...
With so many random variables it,s easy to compete with a near over tested barrel....
Omho
Bill larson
 
Testing is required...HOWEVER....be careful.....you can wear out a very good barrel "testing"...
With so many random variables it,s easy to compete with a near over tested barrel....
Omho
Bill larson

Understood. But I'm at the point where I 'm trying to understand how the tuner affects my groups under varying conditions and how to keep the rifle in the sweet spot. "Testing" is probably a bad term to use. I think "calibrating" is more appropriate. And, unfortunately, if I have to burn up 1 barrel learning how to maximize the performance of the next 50 barrels, well then that's the price of admission.
 
Yes,I see your train of thought...tuners do change things...but they can,t make a mediocore barrel a hummer...and can make a hummer a bummer...
alot of records/matches held/shot were done w.o.tuners.i believe tuners are about as good as the guy doing the tuning...
Bill
 
When you get to see Gene Beggs in his tunnel, he will tell you about tuning on variations of density altitude. One thing that wasn’t mentioned in your tuning targets was the time between targets and variations of density altitude or temperature, humidity, other factors that will change how a rifle reacts to these changes. In competition I change my Gene Beggs tuner all day and even on consecutive targets because of the changes in conditions. I track density altitude and change accordingly. In the days before tuners one would “tune” for the condition by going up or down on the powder measure and we did it all day long. We either won or chased or tail trying to keep up.
 
We track DA with a Kestrel 4000. Down and out although Gene has said lately that this is opposite to what he does. I’ve marked our tuner discs with an electric etcher in the clock style with one revolution being 12 hours. We never move more than six hours after installation. I move up or down one hour or every 250 deviation in DA. Let me say this: that is for my HV barrel shooting .30BR and your rifle set up may vary from this.
 
Finally after all these years people are starting to see that density altitude is what is changing the velocity. I have been saying this for 20 years and no one ever believed me. The bullet is a wing... It flies. Same as any other wing. In thin air it goes faster and thick air is goes slower. It is not "temperature sensitivity".

There are density measures altitude measures for tuning engines.
 
I learned everything I know about this from Gene Beggs. I debunked Gene from the start and went so far as to say I wouldn’t use density altitude and a tuner to tune until someone who never beat me before got a tuner and beat me. At the IBS National at Chippewa Range in Ohio Hal Drake beat me with a dagnabbed tuner. So I had to get a tuner and some instructions. That came from Gene Beggs. It’s been sweet success since then and I owe it all to Gene Beggs.........and Hal Drake.
 
As I teased earlier, I had the opportunity to test my rig in Gene Beggs' 100y tunnel located in Odessa, TX. We shot some groups Thursday afternoon and then followed up with some additional testing Friday morning. Targets below. In summary, the tuner isn't magically going to turn Elmer Fudd into Tony Boyer. But it can be a useful tool that I will continue to explore.

Here is Thursday's target.

Mar 21 Beggs Tunnel.png

Shot 3 foulers (not shown) and then shot the 5 3-shot groups at 5 different tuner settings. This is the exact load, seating depth, and sequence I shot for the March 11 testing I published earlier in this thread. Both Gene and I were surprised how well the groups formed regardless of the tuner setting. FWIW, Gene measured the Setting 3 group at 0.096". At this point I'm thinking maybe this tuner thing WILL turn me into Tony Boyer.

Studying the target later that evening in the hotel, I noticed how similar the March 21 target is to the March 11 target. The March 11 target has horizontal stringing that I know is due to my errors in accounting for the wind that day. Evaluated on the basis of vertical only, the March 11 target pretty much mirrors the March 21 target.

Friday morning, I wanted to see if I could repeat the groups we saw Thursday at settings 3 and 4 and to see what happened if I turned the tuner past 4; ie to marks 5 and 6. I wanted to see the gun go out of tune so I might pick up on any patterns it might exhibit. Prior to shooting the target I adjusted the windage to center the group up and made a 1/8-MOA adjustment down on the elevation to get the groups to print below my 12 o'clock on the moth ball POA. Shot 2 foulers and then shot the record groups starting at tuner setting 3. (Foulers not shown. Gun was not cleaned after Thursday testing.) Here's that target.

Mar 22 Beggs Tunnel.png
Well, I got to see the gun out of tune except it was at the setting I thought was going to be in tune. I do remember the sequence of shots. High, middle, and low. I also had obviously over-adjusted the windage. Nevertheless, I shot settings 4, 5, and 6. 4 was fantastic, 5 had some horizontal, and 6 blew up.

Undeterred, I next shot 3 5-shot groups at 3, 4, and 5. #3 was okay but 4 and 5 were not good. My ES, which had been running in the low 20s, blew out to 49 fps and that may be contributing to the poor groups.

Next we thought perhaps we needed to make smaller adjustments, ie 1/2-mark rather than full-mark turns. So I loaded up 15 rounds with the plan to shot settings 3, 3-1/2, 4, 4-1/2, and 5. I also dialed the elevation down another 1/8-MOA. After the 4-1/2 group, I conceded the gun was not cooperating and so with the 3 rounds remaining, I shot the final group at a setting of 2-1/2. Wow! 2-1/2 is sweet. My ES was 25 for this group. And with this, we stopped.

So what did I learn? If I can find and maintain the tune, the gun will shoot very small. In my case, I believe "in tune" is anywhere from tuner setting 1 to 4. It's not going to be possible to consult an atmospheric chart for a tuner setting, reset the tuner, and have it shoot a 0.010" group right after the RO gives the command to commence fire. As tuner guys like Mike Ezell have advised, if the gun isn't shooting the way it should, make a small adjustment. If that doesn't help, try going the other way. Maybe with time I'll get better at predicting ahead of time where the sweet spot is hiding. But for now, I'm thinking I'll have to hunt and peck a little with the foulers prior to jumping up to the record target.

In closing I want to repeat that my primary objective in installing the tuner was to be enable me to precisely pre-weigh powder charges and then use the tuner to adjust the tune as conditions warrant. I believe with more practice and match experience, I will achieve that objective.

My thanks again to Gene Beggs for his sage advice and for the use of his wonderful facility.
 
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I don't know if you use ocw load development at all but can the same principle be attached to tuner settings. In your first post 12 was ragged hole tight and also one of the highest point of impact and worth more testing.

I will be the first to admit load development is not one of my greatest attributes and i have never played with a tuner.

Doesnt atmospheric conditions change a tuner setting everytime your out?
 
I don't know if you use ocw load development at all but can the same principle be attached to tuner settings. In your first post 12 was ragged hole tight and also one of the highest point of impact and worth more testing.

I will be the first to admit load development is not one of my greatest attributes and i have never played with a tuner.

Doesnt atmospheric conditions change a tuner setting everytime your out?
I believe it does....same as changing your powder charge or SD. So why use a tuner?....it is much faster and changing your powder charge at the bench is a PITA.
Ben
 
I don't know if you use ocw load development at all but can the same principle be attached to tuner settings. In your first post 12 was ragged hole tight and also one of the highest point of impact and worth more testing.

I will be the first to admit load development is not one of my greatest attributes and i have never played with a tuner.

Doesnt atmospheric conditions change a tuner setting everytime your out?

Something that seemingly gets overlooked in tuner discussions and analysis of targets is the shooter's ability to observe good bench etiquette as well as the ability to read wind conditions. Also, the capabilities of the rifle and the barrel, not to mention the bullet and load specifically need to be considered. Just because your rifle is in perfect tune doesn't guarantee a perfect target. Tuners are a great tool and can eliminate a lot of time and effort. You are correct that temp and atmospheric conditions do change the tune, not only from one day to the next, but during the day as well. Sounds complicated but this happens whether you use a tuner or tune with powder. Tuners just make adjustments quicker and easier. Also, even though the tune may change during a match, if you have a wide tune window, it may not have a noticeable affect on your target. Many times I have shot score matches when the temp changed 30º during the day and never needed to adjust the tuner or if I did the adjustment was tiny. The more you work with the same rifle and load, the more you become familiar with what is needed to bring it in tune. Tuners aren't magic, but sometimes they seem like it.

YMMV,
Rick
 
Very interesting. One concern I have is the excessive SE. I think the vertical you are seeing is a result of the variation in your loads.
I would like to see the test performed again with a tighter load tolerance, SE in the single digits.
 
I think 4 is an anomaly, as groups on either side are predictably out of tune the way they should be. I suspect that 2-1/2 was very near right. If so, it should be back in again around 10-12, which seems to be true of your first target.
I'm sure Gene discussed the pros and cons of shooting in a tunnel. I've heard him say several times before that it's not as perfect as one would think. Still, I'd reevaluate the load when you get back home. It's not as sharp as it probably should be yet. It may be all the barrel has in it but I doubt it.
Nevertheless, you can see the tuner at work much clearer than the first target shot in conditions.
 
Finally after all these years people are starting to see that density altitude is what is changing the velocity. I have been saying this for 20 years and no one ever believed me. The bullet is a wing... It flies. Same as any other wing. In thin air it goes faster and thick air is goes slower. It is not "temperature sensitivity".

There are density measures altitude measures for tuning engines.
That's external ballistics. Powder burning is a chemical reaction and as such, is temperature dependent. So, as temps increase so do velocities. That results in less in bore time of the bullet. It's fairly calculable, say you're running 3000fps at a given temp but the temp increases and you get a 20fps increase. That's .6%. The in bore time is reduced approximately the same... .6%. Say 1.5 milliseconds minus .6% = 1.491 milliseconds. So what we need is to increase frequency, again, about .6%...Small adjustments of the tuner will do that. We're timing bullet exit to occur at the best possible position of the muzzle for best accuracy.

Not that da doesn't affect velocity but that I believe that it's affects on internal ballistics are miniscule as compared to just temp's affect on effective powder burn rate and energy. Another small consideration is the affect temps have on natural frequency...Again, a factor in being able to precisely calculate tuner setting, but a small one. Anything that affects powder burn, affects tune so absolute peak tune is a moving target. Us BR shooters have done the same thing with powder charge for years that moving a tuner accomplishes...optimizing bullet exit to occur when the barrel is at its best place for small groups. Tuners are just way easier to learn and it can be done on the fly. Although, I don't recommend doing it during a record group. There is at least one person that I know of that does.
 
I’m in the seating depth first camp
I think you really have to be on the right seating depth in order for the tuner to do its best
Some of the noise that Mike mentions could be seating depth just isn’t quite perfect
Believe it or not the ES in velocity settles down at the right seating depth
 
So, as temps increase so do velocities. That results in less in bore time of the bullet. It's fairly calculable, say you're running 3000fps at a given temp but the temp increases and you get a 20fps increase. That's .6%. The in bore time is reduced approximately the same... .6%. Say 1.5 milliseconds minus .6% = 1.491 milliseconds. So what we need is to increase frequency, again, about .6%...Small adjustments of the tuner will do that.

Mike,

Question from a tuner novice...........With your tuner, to increase frequency for a temp increase does that imply "up and in", and does that also decrease amplitude?

Rick M.
 

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