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Ezell barrel tuner interpreting results

I have 3 of Mike's tuners. I've been shooting with them for years.
In my opinion There are about 10-15 spots BETWEEN each mark on the tuner. I'm talking finger mail widths of movement will change one hole groups to two holes.
I'd use#24 and tweek the tuner ever so little.

@gunsandgunsmithing, Mike Ezell, has more information in his head than i can understand ! He's more than willing to help.
 
I’m new to using a tuner so I could do with any tips.
I’ve had an Ezell tuner fitted to my .284 Shehane and have just got back from the range with results of my first tests.
In the attached image I started from the left at 0 (which in effect is nearly 1 turn out from the fully wound in position) I then shot 3 shot groups moving the Ezell out 3 divisions at a time. I did this until I reached a full rotation out and arrived at +30 on the tuner.
I got some interesting groups at 0, +6,+24 and +30
Just wondering how to interpret and where to go next, do I explore the flat vertical around 0 to +6 or to look at testing either side of group +24 ( I did have a few rounds left at the end of the test and +24 was a repeatable group)
View attachment 1564879
Any advise would be appreciated
Thanks
David
Shoot 3 shots at the settings #0 through 14, and then post, you are missing way to much detail in between. The settings are cyclical and in theory will repeat several times in one full revolution (3-4 repeats in each be revolution).
 
Ill say up front I do not like tuners. I dont recommend them. But I also dont discourage them. You have to decide for yourself. But I think in this case and in most cases you do not have the rifle tuned well enough to even consider using the tuner. #1 problem with a tuner is guys touch them before they should. They just cause more harm than good in my experience if you dont know how to use one.
 
Ill say up front I do not like tuners. I dont recommend them. But I also dont discourage them. You have to decide for yourself. But I think in this case and in most cases you do not have the rifle tuned well enough to even consider using the tuner. #1 problem with a tuner is guys touch them before they should. They just cause more harm than good in my experience if you dont know how to use one.
Tell us how you really feel!:)

@6mmHot, heed Alex’s advice. Tune like the tuner is not there until you can tune your gun to shoot to its full potential. For a competitive benchrest rifle, that is shooting at least mid ones to .2 at 100 with some zeros thrown in frequently. 5 shot groups.

Once you master that, then you are ready to play with the tuner if you choose to.
 
Tell us how you really feel!:)

@6mmHot, heed Alex’s advice. Tune like the tuner is not there until you can tune your gun to shoot to its full potential. For a competitive benchrest rifle, that is shooting at least mid ones to .2 at 100 with some zeros thrown in frequently. 5 shot groups.

Once you master that, then you are ready to play with the tuner if you choose to.
LOL. You dont want to know how I really feel about them :)
 
Ill say up front I do not like tuners. I dont recommend them. But I also dont discourage them. You have to decide for yourself. But I think in this case and in most cases you do not have the rifle tuned well enough to even consider using the tuner. #1 problem with a tuner is guys touch them before they should. They just cause more harm than good in my experience if you dont know how to use one.
Yes as you can see I’m no benchrest shooter. The load was good at time of initial testing and also the gun shot well at 1000 yards with it. Just how that 3 shot group panned out I guess. Just wanted to see if things could be improved on. I’m learning with tuners and hoped to find some info on perhaps if this load could be tweaked as a bit.
All input good or bad is helpful and we’re always learning something.
 
IMO, it's a useful tool. One has to spend time leaning the ins and outs of a tuner. They work, period. Every LR BR barrel I have or had has one. Every new barrel I get will have one. Gotta spend time with it and understand the why behind it. If you are not willing to put in the work to learn...DO NOT USE ONE, period.
 
IMO, it's a useful tool. One has to spend time leaning the ins and outs of a tuner. They work, period. Every LR BR barrel I have or had has one. Every new barrel I get will have one. Gotta spend time with it and understand the why behind it. If you are not willing to put in the work to learn...DO NOT USE ONE, period.
I’m just at the very start of the curve and lots to learn. Thanks to everyone for their input
 
IMO, it's a useful tool. One has to spend time leaning the ins and outs of a tuner. They work, period. Every LR BR barrel I have or had has one. Every new barrel I get will have one. Gotta spend time with it and understand the why behind it. If you are not willing to put in the work to learn...DO NOT USE ONE, period.
In that same camp with tuners. If it is not something one is going to spend the time and effort to work with it thru different conditions then best to forget about it. Just like any other part of tuning there is no free lunch and the load work up must be done first and completely.
 
Here's a good example of tuner results. I shot a match today. I took two rifles with me, one without a tuner tuned o a zeros grouping and the other having been tuned with a known good load for the rifle. The day I tuned using the tuner was dry and 90 ish degrees. I started the warmup target this morning with the tuner'd rifle, 68* and showery. The rifle quickly showed me it was out of tune. I the switched to the un-tuner gun and it was behaving much better than the "tuner" gun so I stuck with it for the day. Rather than fool around moving the tuner, I shot the rifle that was shooting decent. The tunerless rifle stayed completive all day today ( 250-11 xes HBR rife, second place by one x.)

When one mounts a tuner on a barrel one must resign themselves to chase the tune, most of the time vs without one, rely on a tune that has proven to deliver the goods most of the time.

I have been messing with tuners since they became legal to use in IBS Score. I have used them successfully sometimes but I have found that with a good tune without a tuner, I can mostly do better with what the barrel, load will give me visa vi using a tuner to deliver similar results. I a still waiting for a published set of instructions of when and how much to move a tuner for X Y Z weather conditions, when a change is triggered by what situation. I'd pay a lot for said instructions. I know tuners work but they seem so needy of attention most of the time I have had them mounted. Mostly, I don't use them.
 
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Here's a good example of tuner results. I shot a match today. I took two rifles with me, one without a tuner tuned o a zeros grouping and the other having been tuned with a known good load for the rifle. The day I tuned using the tuner was dry and 90 ish degrees. I started the warmup target this morning with the tuner'd rifle, 68* and showery. The rifle quickly showed me it was out of tune. I the switched to the un-tuner gun and it was behaving much better than the "tuner" gun so I stuck with it for the day. Rather than fool around moving the tuner, I shot the rifle that was shooting decent. The tunerless rifle stayed completive all day today ( 250-11 xes HBR rife, second place by one x.)

When one mounts a tuner on a barrel one must resign themselves to chase the tune, most of the time vs without one, rely on a tune that has proven to deliver the goods most of the time.

I have been messing with tuners since they became legal to use in IBS Score. I have used them successfully sometimes but I have found that with a good tune without a tuner, I can mostly do better with what the barrel, load will give me visa vi using a tuner to deliver similar results. I a still waiting for a published set of instructions of when and how much to move a tuner for X Y Z weather conditions, when a change is triggered by what situation. I'd pay a lot for said instructions. I know tuners work but they seem so needy of attention most of the time I have had them mounted. Mostly, I don't use them.
I really find this to be pretty much just plain false, or at least opposite of my thoughts, experience and I have never found supportive evidence anywhere. Simply put, if anything at all(it's small) they become a bit less tune sensitive with a weight of some sort at the muzzle and there IS supportive evidence to that. You're simply doing two things. One is lowering vibrational frequency and the other is INCREASING amplitude. Yes, I know physics teaches us it lowers amplitude and yes, this is true OVER time, but it's not true in the very short period we are worried about in this context, of while the bullet is in the barrel. I've literally measured both and quantified exactly by how much as well with pretty fancy equipment and guys a lot smarter than me to set up and read the test. So it wasn't just me here. I'm just a dumb farmer/gun plumber but I've spent a ton on this very narrow subject, that being tuners and how they do what they do.

I do think that if a tuner is used for a crutch or if you're constantly fiddling with it, you're doing several things wrong with them. Bottom line, I tell people this, fwiw...don't touch the tuner unless you'd get up and change loads! You should also know by how much, which way and why, before you move it. Same for changing your load.

To the op, as others have said, yes, you're moving the tuner too far at a time. If this is a cf rifle, fire 15 three shot groups at 100 yards, moving the tuner only one line at a time. Your test target was similar to what I have people do, so I'm inclined to think you've spoken with someone on the subject but every tiny detail of my test tells me something. It's even very important the target be made just like what I describe and what a couple of others have posted a pic of. That test is freakin solid gold but it IS the shortcut. Skipping anything, pretty much means starting from scratch. That test is your instruction sheet, fired by you, with your rifle and load. Done right, it literally tells you everything you need to know. It shows tune at both top and bottom of the sine wave as well as what the gun does as it progresses away from tune and how far from extremes, in tune to all the way out. It also tells you which way to go as you see those specific and repeatable group shapes happen on your real match target.

I give very detailed instructions about all of this but only by phone because there are so many details and questions that I can help with only by phone. Mr Wass is on a very short list of people that I just wish all the best to in whatever he does but due to previous issues dealing with him, I'm just done with him.

I realize you're across the pond but I want to emphasize to you that I am very happy to help you with using my product. That's how I think business should be done, with great support, especially when it comes to tuners. So by all means, please do give me a call later this week when you and I can talk a bit. I'll be in and out some this week and I think things will be settled for the most part by about Wednesday or so. I'm on central time and my normal hours are typical business hours of 8am-5pm. I'll pm you with my number if you need me to or you may well have it since you have my product already...and thank you for that! I really don't believe anyone else comes close to the customer support that I'm happy to offer regarding tuners and I hope you will agree when we talk. Thank you again --Mike Ezell

PS--this is my test target with instructions. Every tiny detail, down to making your own target like it, matters.

Moving too far is THE most common mistake. It's easy to understand why too. I mean, we're starting with a blank sheet of paper here. But no matter whose tuner one uses, it's absolutely paramount to know the value of each incremental chang on the target. Without that, we'd all be guessing. I've done most of the legwork on mine in this regard and will explain..actually predict, specific group shapes and distance between sweet spots when we talk. G'Day!:)
1719182052844.png
 
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Different conditions from day to day may affect it a small bit, but I'll suggest this. Move the tuner IN 2 lines(30), toward receiver from where you started your test and let me know how that group looks. It's a little bit of a swag but I bet it dots up pretty well right there.
 
Is the 0 setting vertical dispersion acceptable as a starting point, looks like more than one caliber size? Now that I have barrels threaded for suppressor I'm thinking about trying a tuner, for fun.
My swag is based on two things. First, groups that are diagonal, leaning the direction his are, which is up and right, is typically two marks away on MY tuner. Another reason is that THAT group shape is not wind induced from a rh twist bbl. Again, it's just a swag. His test skips over MORE than it actually shows.
 
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I really find this to be pretty much just plain false, or at least opposite of my thoughts, experience and I have never found supportive evidence anywhere. Simply put, if anything at all(it's small) they become a bit less tune sensitive with a weight of some sort at the muzzle and there IS supportive evidence to that. You're simply doing two things. One is lowering vibrational frequency and the other is INCREASING amplitude. Yes, I know physics teaches us it lowers amplitude and yes, this is true OVER time, but it's not true in the very short period we are worried about in this context, of while the bullet is in the barrel. I've literally measured both and quantified exactly by how much as well with pretty fancy equipment and guys a lot smarter than me to set up and read the test. So it wasn't just me here. I'm just a dumb farmer/gun plumber but I've spent a ton on this very narrow subject, that being tuners and how they do what they do.

I do think that if a tuner is used for a crutch or if you're constantly fiddling with it, you're doing several things wrong with them. Bottom line, I tell people this, fwiw...don't touch the tuner unless you'd get up and change loads! You should also know by how much, which way and why, before you move it. Same for changing your load.

To the op, as others have said, yes, you're moving the tuner too far at a time. If this is a cf rifle, fire 15 three shot groups at 100 yards, moving the tuner only one line at a time. Your test target was similar to what I have people do, so I'm inclined to think you've spoken with someone on the subject but every tiny detail of my test tells me something. It's even very important the target be made just like what I describe and what a couple of others have posted a pic of. That test is freakin solid gold but it IS the shortcut. Skipping anything, pretty much means starting from scratch. That test is your instruction sheet, fired by you, with your rifle and load. Done right, it literally tells you everything you need to know. It shows tune at both top and bottom of the sine wave as well as what the gun does as it progresses away from tune and how far from extremes, in tune to all the way out. It also tells you which way to go as you see those specific and repeatable group shapes happen on your real match target.

I give very detailed instructions about all of this but only by phone because there are so many details and questions that I can help with only by phone. Mr Wass is on a very short list of people that I just wish all the best to in whatever he does but due to previous issues dealing with him, I'm just done with him.

I realize you're across the pond but I want to emphasize to you that I am very happy to help you with using my product. That's how I think business should be done, with great support, especially when it comes to tuners. So by all means, please do give me a call later this week when you and I can talk a bit. I'll be in and out some this week and I think things will be settled for the most part by about Wednesday or so. I'm on central time and my normal hours are typical business hours of 8am-5pm. I'll pm you with my number if you need me to or you may well have it since you have my product already...and thank you for that! I really don't believe anyone else comes close to the customer support that I'm happy to offer regarding tuners and I hope you will agree when we talk. Thank you again --Mike Ezell

PS--this is my test target with instructions. Every tiny detail, down to making your own target like it, matters.

Moving too far is THE most common mistake. It's easy to understand why too. I mean, we're starting with a blank sheet of paper here. But no matter whose tuner one uses, it's absolutely paramount to know the value of each incremental chang on the target. Without that, we'd all be guessing. I've done most of the legwork on mine in this regard and will explain..actually predict, specific group shapes and distance between sweet spots when we talk. G'Day!:)
View attachment 1566012
Thanks Mike for such a comprehensive reply it really is appreciated. I will rerun this test as you describe and start 2 notches in from my zero position. I’ll see what results I get then and at that point once I have better info a chat would be more productive.
thanks again
David.
 
I really find this to be pretty much just plain false, or at least opposite of my thoughts, experience and I have never found supportive evidence anywhere. Simply put, if anything at all(it's small) they become a bit less tune sensitive with a weight of some sort at the muzzle and there IS supportive evidence to that. You're simply doing two things. One is lowering vibrational frequency and the other is INCREASING amplitude. Yes, I know physics teaches us it lowers amplitude and yes, this is true OVER time, but it's not true in the very short period we are worried about in this context, of while the bullet is in the barrel. I've literally measured both and quantified exactly by how much as well with pretty fancy equipment and guys a lot smarter than me to set up and read the test. So it wasn't just me here. I'm just a dumb farmer/gun plumber but I've spent a ton on this very narrow subject, that being tuners and how they do what they do.

I do think that if a tuner is used for a crutch or if you're constantly fiddling with it, you're doing several things wrong with them. Bottom line, I tell people this, fwiw...don't touch the tuner unless you'd get up and change loads! You should also know by how much, which way and why, before you move it. Same for changing your load.

To the op, as others have said, yes, you're moving the tuner too far at a time. If this is a cf rifle, fire 15 three shot groups at 100 yards, moving the tuner only one line at a time. Your test target was similar to what I have people do, so I'm inclined to think you've spoken with someone on the subject but every tiny detail of my test tells me something. It's even very important the target be made just like what I describe and what a couple of others have posted a pic of. That test is freakin solid gold but it IS the shortcut. Skipping anything, pretty much means starting from scratch. That test is your instruction sheet, fired by you, with your rifle and load. Done right, it literally tells you everything you need to know. It shows tune at both top and bottom of the sine wave as well as what the gun does as it progresses away from tune and how far from extremes, in tune to all the way out. It also tells you which way to go as you see those specific and repeatable group shapes happen on your real match target.

I give very detailed instructions about all of this but only by phone because there are so many details and questions that I can help with only by phone. Mr Wass is on a very short list of people that I just wish all the best to in whatever he does but due to previous issues dealing with him, I'm just done with him.

I realize you're across the pond but I want to emphasize to you that I am very happy to help you with using my product. That's how I think business should be done, with great support, especially when it comes to tuners. So by all means, please do give me a call later this week when you and I can talk a bit. I'll be in and out some this week and I think things will be settled for the most part by about Wednesday or so. I'm on central time and my normal hours are typical business hours of 8am-5pm. I'll pm you with my number if you need me to or you may well have it since you have my product already...and thank you for that! I really don't believe anyone else comes close to the customer support that I'm happy to offer regarding tuners and I hope you will agree when we talk. Thank you again --Mike Ezell

PS--this is my test target with instructions. Every tiny detail, down to making your own target like it, matters.

Moving too far is THE most common mistake. It's easy to understand why too. I mean, we're starting with a blank sheet of paper here. But no matter whose tuner one uses, it's absolutely paramount to know the value of each incremental chang on the target. Without that, we'd all be guessing. I've done most of the legwork on mine in this regard and will explain..actually predict, specific group shapes and distance between sweet spots when we talk. G'Day!:)
View attachment 1566012
I agree with not moving the tuner too far. I have a tuner on my HV rifle permanently. When I move it, I only move the "Fingernail Width" amount and most often that is enough. I don't shoot VFS very much, if ever but often loan the rifle to a shooter who is new and has no rifle or gear. I only collect something for the ammo. My real love of shooting is with 6X scoped rifles and has been since the beginning of my Score Shooting "Career". They are 10 pound rifles so it is difficult to put a very heavy tuner on them.

Mike E has done everyone a great service in sharing what he knows about tuners and their use. He deserves credit for his work and sharing.

Pete
 

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