Induction brass annealer redux
- Thread starter Gina1
- Start date
Hi All,
a little late to the party, but huge thanks to the two gentlemen who came up with this, and then shared it.
So I'm about to jump in and try to build one of these. Just wondering if there are other Kiwis or Aussies who have built one? And if so, were there any parts that swapped / substituted? We have 230 v at our wall sockets, but as long as the power supply used works with that, all the other parts should work? cheers
a little late to the party, but huge thanks to the two gentlemen who came up with this, and then shared it.
So I'm about to jump in and try to build one of these. Just wondering if there are other Kiwis or Aussies who have built one? And if so, were there any parts that swapped / substituted? We have 230 v at our wall sockets, but as long as the power supply used works with that, all the other parts should work? cheers
I'm a Kiwi but living in the US. You only need to adjust for your mains supply fuses. (Currents will halve.) Have mains supply to the 48V and 12V PSUs and run everything other than the induction board off 12V.
I have a extra annealer board on hand and 48v 20 amp PS coming in the mail for another project. I'll try it with bigger coil on some 50 cal brass and see how long it takes to anneal. Should have PS in a couple days. Thanks HB
Sorry, when it comes to electronics / electrical, I'm useless. So are you saying that I need to change the fuse between the mains and the power supply? I just don't want to make a mistake, and bring down the wraith of the love of my life (she maybe monitoring this....Hi Wifey), and halt shooting. If I did read you right, how do I determine what fuse to use please?
If your power supplies are like most, there should be a slide switch on the back of the power supply. It toggles between 110 volts and 220 volts. In your case it needs to be set to 220 volts.
That is both the 12 volt and 48 volt power supply. (if your main annealing power supply is 48 volts)(some builder are using 36 volts.)
Hope this helps
It depends a little on your implementation. But basically you will want to add up the potential current draw in your design. P= V x I. So, for example, a 15.7A capable PSU supplying 48V to an induction board has a max rated power demand of 48 x 15.7 = 754W. If 120V mains is supplying that power then you draw up to 754/120 = 6.3A. You'd want something like a 6.3A slow blow mains fuse (possibly 8A if there is in-rush currents but one would start at the lower figure). However if your mains supply is 230V then 754/230= 3.3A and so a more suitable fuse would be say 3.5 - 4A slow blow.
I only have two mains fuses in my implementation and see no need to fuse everything in sight. Only two things draw mains power in my implementation - the 48V PSU and 12V PSU. I have a 6.3A SB mains fuse at the IEC power inlet. (I highly recommend using a fused IEC inlet and ideally one with a fuse draw that's accessible from outside the enclosure.) Obviously all power is drawn through that inlet so it needs to handle all the peak power but protect if something has gone wrong. I added a fuse between the mains inlet and the 12V PSU as well. That's it. The 12V PSU supplies power to my two fans, the relay which switches power to the induction board, my control board, the trap door solenoid, the coolant pump and the Sestos timer. It is a 3A supply. 3 x 12 = 36W. 36/120 is less than a mere third of an amp. So I added a 0.5A slow blow fuse between the mains inlet and the 12V PSU. If you were to implement my version of the design you would merely use a 3.5-4A SB at the inlet and maybe a 0.25A SB for the 12V supply.
As Gina mentions there will either be a switch on your power supplies or they will have the ability to self-detect the mains current.
Mains voltage power is dangerous and can kill you. Minimise that which is powered by mains voltages and size the fuses sensibly. Make sure you implement good practice for safety earth connections. Particularly if you have a metallic enclosure you need to have an extremely secure connection from power supply "earth' connections to a safety earth point on the enclosure and from that point to the safety earth in your power inlet (and thereby from there to the ground rod in your house). See figure 3 here http://sound.whsites.net/earthing.htm (Calling these wires "ground" is a misnomer.)
(Obviously firearms can be rather lethal as well. Hopefully everyone here is a rather sensible person. Nonetheless I would be remiss if I gave advice in relation to mains voltages without the warning.)
I only have two mains fuses in my implementation and see no need to fuse everything in sight. Only two things draw mains power in my implementation - the 48V PSU and 12V PSU. I have a 6.3A SB mains fuse at the IEC power inlet. (I highly recommend using a fused IEC inlet and ideally one with a fuse draw that's accessible from outside the enclosure.) Obviously all power is drawn through that inlet so it needs to handle all the peak power but protect if something has gone wrong. I added a fuse between the mains inlet and the 12V PSU as well. That's it. The 12V PSU supplies power to my two fans, the relay which switches power to the induction board, my control board, the trap door solenoid, the coolant pump and the Sestos timer. It is a 3A supply. 3 x 12 = 36W. 36/120 is less than a mere third of an amp. So I added a 0.5A slow blow fuse between the mains inlet and the 12V PSU. If you were to implement my version of the design you would merely use a 3.5-4A SB at the inlet and maybe a 0.25A SB for the 12V supply.
As Gina mentions there will either be a switch on your power supplies or they will have the ability to self-detect the mains current.
Mains voltage power is dangerous and can kill you. Minimise that which is powered by mains voltages and size the fuses sensibly. Make sure you implement good practice for safety earth connections. Particularly if you have a metallic enclosure you need to have an extremely secure connection from power supply "earth' connections to a safety earth point on the enclosure and from that point to the safety earth in your power inlet (and thereby from there to the ground rod in your house). See figure 3 here http://sound.whsites.net/earthing.htm (Calling these wires "ground" is a misnomer.)
(Obviously firearms can be rather lethal as well. Hopefully everyone here is a rather sensible person. Nonetheless I would be remiss if I gave advice in relation to mains voltages without the warning.)
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A just quick thank you to the original poster and all the contributors. I thought about this post as I didn't want to add more reading without adding any new information. I must say I have read most of it 69 pages once and am on the second read. I have had a few ebay induction modules for a few years had a play but never went to the next step as I saw so many issues. I still would like to build the better mouse trap if it is possible. There have been some great ideas on improvements on the original but nothing revolutionary so the basic must be pretty good.
I had some parts on the way before coming upon this forum and thread to further my play a bit more but this information has inspired me to commit and build a production machine. Thank you everybody again.
One question I have on order the Fluxeon Flux coil concentrator it has the open section. Main reason was because the AMP machine I think has something like this and i wanted to get a concentrated heat on the case not heat too much of the case. Has anybody had experience with these compared to the copper coil? I was disappointed with Fluxeon as even they would not answer any emails. Even ones with simple questions comparing their products.
I had some parts on the way before coming upon this forum and thread to further my play a bit more but this information has inspired me to commit and build a production machine. Thank you everybody again.
One question I have on order the Fluxeon Flux coil concentrator it has the open section. Main reason was because the AMP machine I think has something like this and i wanted to get a concentrated heat on the case not heat too much of the case. Has anybody had experience with these compared to the copper coil? I was disappointed with Fluxeon as even they would not answer any emails. Even ones with simple questions comparing their products.
So dskogman tell us about the advantages and any disadvantages of the 1800W induction board. One of the concerns I have is the shutting down of the annealing SGK has shown in may take 0.75 sec which is a huge amount when dealing with 3 sec or less times. do you have to allow for this ramp down time and hope it is constant each time or do we put in another contractor to turn of the work coil not so easy being water cooled perhaps a grounding bar brought down on the two tubes?
I am surprised there has not been more discussion on these and even with the standard ebay 1000 mods replacing out mosfets resistors, zener diodes and bigger heat sinks on the mosfets. All seem like logical points to look at.
For those that are cutting out big holes around the working coil it is common practice in the electrical game to just cut a single slot coming away from the hole of the conductor to stop eddy currents.
I have a lot of parts on the way and some in the shed I have been playing with for a while but now is crunch time.
One thing a lot of importance is put on the look of the case. AMP really try to dispel this and say that there are many other factors involved and looks are not a good indication of a well annealed case. I know I have over done it using the gas torch and a lathe. It really is just enough is good enough.
I am surprised there has not been more discussion on these and even with the standard ebay 1000 mods replacing out mosfets resistors, zener diodes and bigger heat sinks on the mosfets. All seem like logical points to look at.
For those that are cutting out big holes around the working coil it is common practice in the electrical game to just cut a single slot coming away from the hole of the conductor to stop eddy currents.
I have a lot of parts on the way and some in the shed I have been playing with for a while but now is crunch time.
One thing a lot of importance is put on the look of the case. AMP really try to dispel this and say that there are many other factors involved and looks are not a good indication of a well annealed case. I know I have over done it using the gas torch and a lathe. It really is just enough is good enough.
I suspect they are right. The colour change you see seems to differ from brass to brass and on how clean it is etc. I'd place more faith in Tempilaq melting/discolouring at the point on the side wall you want it to. I don't think anyone here knows what the right point is. There are quite a few other threads on this forum discussing what temps are required for annealing (and whether it is worth the hassle at all). Those who seem more knowledgeable suggest temps need to hit 1000F. From everything I've read - and in the end comes down to a finger in the air guess - having 750F Temple melt one shoulder width below the shoulder - wall junction is possibly about right. If you induction anneal in darkened room you will see the case mouth rim glow first and this glow shoot down the mouth of the case just prior to drop. I understand an orange glow on brass is circa 1000F. Whether any of this makes a difference or is optimal annealing I haven't the faintest idea but it is fun to build the annealer and use it.
I'm new to all this I started my annealer before seeing this sight but have struggled getting it to work properly. After reading through this have solved a lot of my problems like coil size and so on. My current problem is on my amp meter I'm showing 14amp at 40.6v with nothing in the coil. When I add a piece of brass to the coil it ramps to 22amps. Something doesn't seem right to me I have read that others people have had the same problem but couldn't find anything that fixed mine.
Dont have any metal within 2in of the coil. If any one has any suggestions please let me know.
1000w zvs board
48v 20A 1000W power supply
Dont have any metal within 2in of the coil. If any one has any suggestions please let me know.
1000w zvs board
48v 20A 1000W power supply
Attachments
I would like to see a front view of your coil. If your running the coil through a mental case, and the coil is close (in/out) close to the case you may be inducing current into the sheet metal of your of your case, hence the extra current. further looking at your picture, I can't tell if the base below your coil is metal or plastic. Metal would cause higher current readings.
I'm not in any real hurry to get a lot of cases done about 100 308 per week is the norm. I shoot what most would know as F/TR. Getting it right is more important. I have over done cases before with a torch and cases turning slowly in the lathe. This is really not good.
Rather than go the 1800 watt board for now as controlling the power either has to be done by Voltage or Current which is an extra cost and even as a home build dollars start to add up quickly.
Rather than go the 1800 watt board for now as controlling the power either has to be done by Voltage or Current which is an extra cost and even as a home build dollars start to add up quickly.
I will stick to the 1000 watt board a different layout to my first one. Then perhaps build a custom one if needed or make a few modifications. A little bit has been said about upgrading the parts to the basic 1000 watt Induction board.
I thought I would purchase some spare parts as I already have one board with at least a blown transistor. So in ordering the new parts I went for slightly upgraded parts for instance on my board the 470 ohm resistors may have been 1/2 watt or 1 watt at best where the circuit diagram shows them as 5 watt so I bought 10 watt. The gate diodes on the diagram are shown as 1 watt but 5 watt so why not swap them out it may save a transistor. The other fast diodes are rated at 3 A but 6 A are available. All these parts cost just cents. The capacitors are also available as are the transistor and larger heat-sinks can be attached to the transistor.
I thought I would purchase some spare parts as I already have one board with at least a blown transistor. So in ordering the new parts I went for slightly upgraded parts for instance on my board the 470 ohm resistors may have been 1/2 watt or 1 watt at best where the circuit diagram shows them as 5 watt so I bought 10 watt. The gate diodes on the diagram are shown as 1 watt but 5 watt so why not swap them out it may save a transistor. The other fast diodes are rated at 3 A but 6 A are available. All these parts cost just cents. The capacitors are also available as are the transistor and larger heat-sinks can be attached to the transistor.
What I couldn't find is the recommended capacitors the FKP type.
A lot of the heat is coming back from the coil but it is induced heat from the case being annealed.
I plan on having an insulated coil wound around a heat tolerant tube and then other tubes that can be inserted easily to make centering and vertical presentation consistent.
So that's the plan so no doubt I will have a lot of questions regarding some of this and certainly the trap door. No plans of Auto feed.
Sorry to have to break this post up but it was giving errors so some electrical terms are not correct
A lot of the heat is coming back from the coil but it is induced heat from the case being annealed.
I plan on having an insulated coil wound around a heat tolerant tube and then other tubes that can be inserted easily to make centering and vertical presentation consistent.
So that's the plan so no doubt I will have a lot of questions regarding some of this and certainly the trap door. No plans of Auto feed.
Sorry to have to break this post up but it was giving errors so some electrical terms are not correct
Are any of your coil tubing loops touching each other? I blew up your photo and some look very close to me. HB
If anyone is looking for spares I found MOSFETs 5 for $4.82 and capacitors 10 for $8.30 on Ebay.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5Pcs-Power-Mosfet-IRFP260-IRFP260N-Ic-New-nc/332205727087
https://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-New-...VDC-for-Induction-cooker-P-30-5-/272271654633
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