how much time and money is enough?

[sailnaked]

how much time and money should be spent to get .5 moa. at 1000yrd.?? do I need a $600 .02grain scale? a $500 chronometer? do I have to have $200 lapua brass? some other? should I weigh each cartridge? each bullet? inspect and weigh each primer? ballistic coefficient above .7 second fired brass only? clean barrel each shot?

what are things that make a "worth it" difference in accuracy.

my assumptions:
I need 66 finished cartridges.
only talking about the gun, not the shooter.
the barrel is a precision barrel capable of doing this.
.308 or larger.

yes this is my first post and I am a real reloader and honestly want to know.

 

[Link]

How much does it cost you to ''sailnaked'' ? Just wondering. ;]

 

[Bill Norris]

how much time and money should be spent to get .5 moa. at 1000yrd.?? do I need a $600 .02grain scale? a $500 chronometer? do I have to have $200 lapua brass? some other? should I weigh each cartridge? each bullet? inspect and weigh each primer? ballistic coefficient above .7 second fired brass only? clean barrel each shot?

what are things that make a "worth it" difference in accuracy.

my assumptions:
I need 66 finished cartridges.
only talking about the gun, not the shooter.
the barrel is a precision barrel capable of doing this.
.308 or larger.

yes this is my first post and I am a real reloader and honestly want to know.

As you must have already figured out this sport cost real money. As in any other sport or hobby you can take it to most any limit you like. To be competitive you will need to purchase good equipment, good components, and have a good "smith" lined up that does quality work. Any deviation from GOOD here will show up on the target. With all that being stated it is unlikely anyone will be able to give out a solid dollar amount. One simply has to bite the bullet and go for it.

The "smith" is very important. After app. 20 custom rifles and/or barreled actions built for me and friends of mine the best "smith" I've found is (WSMNUT) here on the site. Old Dominion Custom Rifles, Maidens, VA

 

[ELR LVR]

No you do not need to spend big $ in reloading equipment
Weighing to 1/10th grain is enough in my opinion if charge weights are 50 grns and over
(Percentage of difference is smaller in larger cases)
Most of your money should be in the gun itself
Dont know your barrel brand but simply assuming it is a good brand is not enough.
Uniform all your cases
Weight sort bullets and sort by Base to ogive
---------------------------------------------------------
Load development... load development ....load development !!!
When you Think you've found a perfect load....
............................................More load development
Meaning if there is a powder you have not tried yet....Try it.
Then try every different primer
Go through every possible seating depth from jammed to backed off
.005" at a time until you find your sweet window
then hone it in within .001"
Your range of seating depth attempts .... could be a range of .150"
Jammed in .060" to backed off .070"
You dont know until you try.
When youve found a load you think is "Perfect"
Try it in different conditions to test repeatability and consistency
Hot day, cold day, etc.
Your load must show high precision on any given day
You must be able to know where you place your crosshairs, that is exactly where your bullet is going to go
Not accept that within 1/4" is close enough at 100 yds.
More load development if that is the case.... or a new (different brand) barrel
------------------------------------
There's times I find a load that I feel is "Good Enough"
Then suddenly try a different powder and decrease the groupings by half
say from .200" to .100"
Just from a powder change
-------------------------------------
And what sucks is we dont know what powder characteritics will work best for our cartridge
That to me is the biggest variable and unknown to load development.
-------------------------------------
This assumes you are capable enough of a shooter in your form technique and follow through
to print .100" groups pretty regularly at 100 yds
-------------------------------------
I love the science of load development and actually enjoy doing that more to find perfect loads for my guns than just going out to go shooting.
Because once I find a perfect load, it is always reliable, always predictable
But there's times I have felt by the time I find the perfect load, my barrel will be worn out lol
(Thats usually only for a factory barreled gun though)
Custom barrels usually can find a perfect load within 100 to 200 rounds.
--------------------------------------
One more frustration to add, just because a bullet maker makes a good bullet and everybody else is shooting it, does not necessarily mean your barrel will like it.
this is rare but it happens and you must suck it up and try a different bullet
Say going from a Berger to a Lapua Scenar or an SMK
Another, I have no idea why a certain barrel may not like a good quality bullet.
I know others here have experienced this rarity also.

 

[Ranger188]

You never hear or see someone win with junk and no talent.
You can't have a .5 MOA rifle and expect more from it.
Consistent ammo is a must.
Plus reading the wind at 1000yds. will separate the winners and losers.

Back to your question, only you can develop what works for you.
You'll have to try all of those things (one at a time) and see what works
with your rifle and skill level and what doesn't seem to add anything.
Everyone has a different approach to loading. It's a learning curve.
That's why it's SO expensive.

 

[RustyInBend]

Of all the things I use to get solid results, I consider the AMP Annealer, and the AMP Press, to be the quality "bookends" that contribute the most to my results. Everything else in my process has multiple brands and types that work just fine, but I consider those two elements to (a) be unique, and (b) fully justify their cost.

 

[davidjoe]

F-Class long range shooters divide into two groups, not necessarily cash flush or budget tight, retired or working, or even the natural wind aces, or not. These are valid, but more applicable is whether you can get some 1,000 yard range time in between actual matches, largely, can you drive to a range between matches or not.

I will wager that not a single long range F-Class shooter that can make a round trip to a 1,000 yard range, and shoot, all between sunup and sundown, isn’t a member of the range that is inside that distance.

If you can’t get to the range between matches for practice, you’ll really never break the bank at seeking 1/2 moa at 1,000, because you just don’t achieve the round count at 1,000 to be pushing the dollar limits.

If you can get to 1,000 at will, the world changes:

1) you can wait for dead calm;

2) you can try something out that seems too iffy to do in a match, such that it may never get tried;

3) you can wait for the big wind, so that you can explore trying to hit that “pro” side of the target when it doesn’t actually matter if you hit where you aimed;

4) you can find out if a tight shooting gun at midrange displays vertical that isn’t apparent close in;

5) you can ascertain, by comparing results, which distance of flags you should most carefully base your call upon.

The downside is that while you get better (our goal) you probably do use up components more quickly.

I’ll for example, drive down and be pushed into 200 by other range shooters. 200 is the distance that doesn’t interfere with anyone else’s use. I’ll shoot 300 Win Mag groups like this, today, 25 mph gust, some a better, some a little worse, but this basically only confirms a barrel is not opening up. It’s too close to hold off and too ambiguous if I were to do so. And it’s still 1 hour away to seek this limited information.

None of my groups inside 1,000 will foretell that a vertical problem exists at 1,000, for example, the E-target, below. (Wind was from the right, hence avoid the upwind 9 like the plague.)

 

[farmerjohn]

Hey Feller, all good advice so far, one thing not mentioned so far is you have to be able to see the target. depending on your age and vision you need the best glass you can afford, darn near as expensive as the rifle in my case anyway.... and don't buy one till you have tried several to make sure it works for you, some scopes work better than others for different people, good luck....John

 

[Walt Krafft]

You will also need an electronic target if you have a range you can use it.

 

[rlporter507]

It's an endless rabbit hole. You can go down as far as you want, but there's a toll booth every 100 feet. Bring your wallet.
Some shoot well without going to deep, others like me like to go deeper, just to see if it's better there. That's part of the fun for me.
My beam scale went south, bearing wore out. Went digital, and was thinking a v4, so got the fx120i. Worked OK without the v4, so never got it. Does it make it better weighing to the hundredth of a grain? Not sure, didn't see an apparent improvement, but if something goes wrong, I know it was not the charge. Some luxury items are just piece of mind.

 

[R.Morehouse]

You don't need an electronic scale, a tuned beam scale works fine.
Lapua brass is quality stuff and others are working just as well for some.
The Garmin chrono is so easy to use, it makes this hobby more enjoyable
If you can source custom bullets, this helps....Also, inspect the BT on every bullet for imperfections, it matters.
Pay close attention to your case OAL, it matters.
Leave the carbon in your case necks and just run a nylon brush in & out a few times before sizing.

You can spend a little or a lot.......This is a hobby for me.

Some spend their time on endless load development, while others give it a quick look and go compete.

There is nothing wrong with eating up the entire life of a barrel chasing different results and systems of doing it......This is a hobby.......If you find it ends up not being fun, change something......If it is necessary to win to have fun.......You may need very deep pockets for components, gas, hotels, etc. But that can be a whole lot of fun as well.................Buy This Book.....It will help.......Keep It Fun

Regards
Rick

 

[ShtrRdy]

Thanks @sailnaked you'll keep these guys busy for a while.

 

[wv.citybilly]

Texas Plinking channel has 1,000 yard contests. It's a good place see different types of rifles and equipment (i.e., scopes) used for this distance.

Texas Plinking

 

[JB10]

I just think of shooting as my choice of drug. So i spend depending on my mood and what i can justify in my head. Usually on the lighter side for me if it works. Makes more trigger time if i want

 

[PatMiles]

It's an endless rabbit hole. You can go down as far as you want, but there's a toll booth every 100 feet. Bring your savings passbook.
Some shoot well without going to deep, others like me like to go deeper, just to see if it's better there. That's part of the fun for me.
My beam scale went south, bearing wore out. Went digital, and was thinking a v4, so got the fx120i. Worked OK without the v4, so never got it. Does it make it better weighing to the hundredth of a grain? Not sure, didn't see an apparent improvement, but if something goes wrong, I know it was not the charge. Some luxury items are just piece of mind.

FIFY!

 

[Steve Donlon]

I think it depends on where you live. If you have open country around you then long range shooting is more of a challenge for me. Shooting good at 100 yards is one thing but can be misleading at longer ranges. The more variables the more fun, like reading the wind at long range and getting the load that works at all ranges is very satisfying. It all depends on how much time you want to put into it and where you live. From a pellet rifle to a rifle that will shoot 1 mile or more. Better to figure it out now or chase your tail around with different rifles that will only do one thing really good. A 30 BR or a long range 338 or both and then some and be here.

 

[JSH]

You can have all of the very best of everything, and absolute perfect ammo. You can have the “coolest” rig on the planet, that doesn’t make it or you shoot any better. Don’t get caught up in gimmicks, just go get one of those little naked trolls and put on your bench, or find a jeep guy and get a duck from him.
If the one running the bang switch is not capable at the time, well if it was easy no one would be doing it.
I am very very fortunate to have some friends that are excellent disciplined shooters. So, I drop my rig off with ammo and equipment. They test at their leisure, they are alway happy to shoot my ammo.
8-9 times out of 10, they best me with my own rig.
This is a mind game as much as anything. If you don’t feel %110 when you go to the range, don’t go.
If you question you or ANY of your equipment’s capabilities, fix it so your mind is sound. Subconscious thoughts do nothing for confidence.
If you can’t read the wind and understand it, you will struggle.

There is a lot of knowledge here, read, ask and absorb as much as possible. Don’t take comments wrong most guys here are direct and to the point and want others to succeed.

 

[searcher]

Bear in mind that getting 1/2 MOA out of a rifle with a good barrel, scope, bedding and trigger should be easy to do with most rigs- though we are not talking external influences (conditions) or shooter skills. There are a percentage of guys with top of the line gear and no restraint on the cost of equipment. But if their rifle shoots the same as yours (let's say 1/2 MOA for illustration), the only thing that separates you from them is skill. and that is gained by doing a LOT of shooting and getting good at the basics of proper shooting form, reading the wind flags and getting a good feel for what your rifle does. Getting 1/2" MOA ammo does not require specialized or expensive reloading gear, though I think it safe to say most folks will dump around $750.00+ for a decent scale that measures down to 1/10th grain), a decent press, preferably bushing dies, etc. An annealing machine is nice but not necessary for 1/2" MOA loads in general. Most competitors add to their equipment or upgrade as they feel the need. And over time, you "can" spend a lot. That said, shooting is a lot less expensive to many people than other hobbies or sports. You are on the right track by asking questions.

As others noted, it is the "range time" that will be where you spend a lot. Figure fuel cost to get to the range, range fees (or membership costs), the costs of components shot, etc.. Then figure how many range trips you can realistically get in during a month. Regarding the "Lapua brass" question, you don't need Lapua brass to get 1/2" MOA. (I'm citing 1/2" MOA as that was your question). I've shot crazy good groups from brass that cost 1/4 of what Lapua does. While Lapua is among the best brass, you need not use it, just as you don't need all the other "most expensive - or best" gear. It is worth considering though, that Lapua brass lasts sometimes twice as long (or more) than many cheaper brands - so it isn't as expensive as it seems, in the long run. But you have to shoot it a lot to see the savings. And to get good, you have to shoot a lot. Good bullets are, I think, more important than the brass - but the better the brass - the better things can be. But, like buying more expensive reloading gear and the best annealer, etc. - those things aren't necessary to get you going and having fun. Berger and Lapua Scenar are a few bullets that are factory run bullets that shoot good but cost less than the custom bullets which you can upgrade to later after you have improved your skillset. They are capable of shooting far under 1/2" MOA in a good rifle and a tuned load. These being "mid-priced" bullets, there are other bullets which cost less than these, as well. It is when you are able to shoot a LOT, then there are barrel replacements. You will need a reasonably good target-type scope.

 

[Hengehold]

If I had to put a dollar amount on it I would say if you shoot 1000-2000 rds per year with a custom built rifle, hand loaded ammo with premium components, sights, etc, I would say about $3-$4 per shot is a good ballpark cost of having a half minute setup at 1k yds.

 

[BobT]

I was talking to a very good F- class shooter and asked him what it entailed to get to his level. I was mainly asking about the process but I’ll never forget his last statement, he said “and here I am, about $10,000.00 later “ .