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how much time and money is enough?

I was talking to a very good F- class shooter and asked him what it entailed to get to his level. I was mainly asking about the process but I’ll never forget his last statement, he said “and here I am, about $10,000.00 later “ .
Honestly, I'd be surprised if one could get to a 'Master' level with just $10K starting with nothing.

My swag would be: [I'm sure if one were frugal, it could be done with less; it could also be done costing a lot more]

Reloading equipment: ~ $3K
Rifle ~ $4-5K
Accessories: $2-3K
Scope: $1-2K

All this doesn't include gas for multiple trips to the range for practice; travel/fees to matches

10,000 shots to hone skills: My 223 rounds cost ~ $0.60 [including amortized cost of barrel] - assuming a 6 mm something is twice => $12K [ETA - there are some/a bunch of people who take far fewer than 10,000 shots to get to a master level. There are also some who never get to that level]
 
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I cannot imagine that the person or persons that hold this secret would answer you or me for any reason. It's probably more like a thousand secrets. The ones that know how spent many dollars and hours chasing the answer, more often than not wasted time and money trying to learn. The top long distance gun smiths try to be helpful, but do they offer the info that they have worked their whole life to learn, to strangers like you and me just for the asking? Would you? Do you or I have the smarts to do this and read all the signs and learn what makes a difference and what doesn't. The best Nascar driver of all times said he could see the wind. I am not sure I could determine 100% of the time if I was improving my set up or making it worse. I think that money may well be the least of your worries. Good luck you going to need it.
 
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how much time and money should be spent to get .5 moa. at 1000yrd.?? do I need a $600 .02grain scale? a $500 chronometer? do I have to have $200 lapua brass? some other? should I weigh each cartridge? each bullet? inspect and weigh each primer? ballistic coefficient above .7 second fired brass only? clean barrel each shot?

what are things that make a "worth it" difference in accuracy.

my assumptions:
I need 66 finished cartridges.
only talking about the gun, not the shooter.
the barrel is a precision barrel capable of doing this.
.308 or larger.

yes this is my first post and I am a real reloader and honestly want to know.
Remember one thing and that is Tiger Woods golf clubs don't make you Tiger Woods. You do what Tiger Woods does and you'll win your share.
Good luck and stay safe.
 
If I had to put a dollar amount on it I would say if you shoot 1000-2000 rds per year with a custom built rifle, hand loaded ammo with premium components, sights, etc, I would say about $3-$4 per shot is a good ballpark cost of having a half minute setup at 1k yds.


As you allude, a half minute at 1,000 does mean something under the .2’s at 100, maybe under the .1’s. Very small bullet and velocity variations play out more as distance increases. The effect is similar to the way wind drift works, logarithmically.

For wind, doubling a given distance increases the drift ~ 5 fold in constant wind. A slightly lower charge weight has a compounding effect over distance, the slower the shot starts relative to others, the faster it is continuing to slow down, at every point along its path, thus the greater the discrepancy with each yard of travel.
 
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I know nothing about F Class shooting and have never done it nor never will. But I can share an idea that resulted in success for me when I embarked on a journey to become a competitive pistol shooter. The same principle may apply here.

I sought out the advice of top competitors (master class shooters). I figured they most know something so I gather information from them. Of course, like most advice, it can sometimes vary but I looked for a common theme. It worked for me and saved me some time and money.

This may work for you in your pursuit of F Class competition excellence.
 
As you allude, a half minute at 1,000 does mean something under the .2’s at 100, maybe under the .1’s. Very small bullet and velocity variations play out more as distance increases. The effect is similar to the way wind drift works, logarithmically.

For wind, doubling a given distance increases the drift up to 10 fold in constant wind. (depends on BC, 5X for 250 A-Tips but still a logarithmic function) A slightly lower charge weight has a compounding effect over distance, the slower the shot starts relative to others, the faster it is continuing to slow down, at every point along its path, thus the greater the discrepancy with each yard of travel.
While he is asking about attaining 1/2" MOA, my first priority would be to try and get that number down considerably. Being able to get that even to .250" MOA certainly enables one to trust their last impact a lot more for adjustments - and puts an inexperienced person in a better tactical situation where they can err on wind calls a bit more than someone not shooting as tight - if nothing else. I do believe even 1/4" MOA is attainable without spending tons of dough on equipment, though some of us try to spend our way to overcome reloading technique - which never works.
 
how much time and money should be spent to get .5 moa. at 1000yrd.?? do I need a $600 .02grain scale? a $500 chronometer? do I have to have $200 lapua brass? some other? should I weigh each cartridge? each bullet? inspect and weigh each primer? ballistic coefficient above .7 second fired brass only? clean barrel each shot?

what are things that make a "worth it" difference in accuracy.

my assumptions:
I need 66 finished cartridges.
only talking about the gun, not the shooter.
the barrel is a precision barrel capable of doing this.
.308 or larger.

yes this is my first post and I am a real reloader and honestly want to know.
The rabbit hole you have gone down is verry deep. Tommy Mc
 
While he is asking about attaining 1/2" MOA, my first priority would be to try and get that number down considerably. Being able to get that even to .250" MOA certainly enables one to trust their last impact a lot more for adjustments - and puts an inexperienced person in a better tactical situation where they can err on wind calls a bit more than someone not shooting as tight - if nothing else. I do believe even 1/4" MOA is attainable without spending tons of dough on equipment, though some of us try to spend our way to overcome reloading technique - which never works.


Yes, the “rifle shot” to very small groups is having a very good barrel and loads, and they cost everyone about the same amount, just a small fraction of the whole endeavor.

A bad barrel will reduce perfect loads to mediocrity. A great barrel can elevate mediocre loads to passable, but then you should wonder what could have been.

Other big expenses, such as the best scopes and rests, make shooting more pleasant with incrementally better results, although some of that improvement is due to lower fatigue, and the self-fulfillment that high confidence generates to new heights, one’s effort expended in order to do well (at the line and loading bench).

This can happen two ways; the first is we now know it’s all on us, we have the best and excuses are now gone, but the second is more interesting.

When a string is going well, we pour more energy into each consecutive shot than we would ever do, when the cause is already lost, so to speak, just watch who falls down and stays there at the end of an Olympic race - if Olympians can let off, most of us shooters sure as heck can be so tempted.

Sometimes that boost needs to be tempered, true “overthinking” might score the other way, but until it’s going really well, that aspect of LR is undiscovered territory.
 
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While he is asking about attaining 1/2" MOA, my first priority would be to try and get that number down considerably. Being able to get that even to .250" MOA certainly enables one to trust their last impact a lot more for adjustments - and puts an inexperienced person in a better tactical situation where they can err on wind calls a bit more than someone not shooting as tight - if nothing else. I do believe even 1/4" MOA is attainable without spending tons of dough on equipment, though some of us try to spend our way to overcome reloading technique - which never works.

I think you're misleading the OP by stating that 1/4 MOA is doable for a new shooter with sub par gear, you're making it sound like agging 2,5" at 1K is no biggie.
 
The rabbit hole you have gone down is verry deep. Tommy Mc
Sounds like you need to pay more attention the Long Range Benchrest ways of doing things....not score shooters to attain the accuracy levels you're looking for on a consistant bases. Search the latest 1,000 yd
Benchrest accuracy records and average groups. These are the ones that are shooting consistantly around half minute and under. If you did a compsosite of all the groups fired at 1,000yd F-class match the average group would be around 16" to 18" for all the groups fired by all the competitors and this is with experienced 1,000yd shooters with very best of equipment.
 
The most cost effective way to reach success is to copy the recipe of successful people. It is not an accident that the top shooters in any discipline are usually using very similar equipment. That is the equipment that produces the results. For example, Erik Cortina provides a clear (not cheap) path to success in F Class shooting. If that is your goal, copy his formula. I see too many people trying to reinvent the wheel. It costs both time and money. Time is a critical factor for most adults. You can buy time in the form of faster or more efficient equipment, but it costs money.

Other shooting sports have similar blueprints available.
 
2024 Freedom Benchrest 1000yd Nationals at Harry Jones WV

winning aggs
LG agg - 3.107"
HG agg - 5.277"
Two Gun agg - 4.466"

some of the best 1K shooters and by far top of the line equipment most of the setups approaching $10,000 sitting on the bench and I did not see anybody agging 1/4 MOA.....no sir !!
 
I think you're misleading the OP by stating that 1/4 MOA is doable for a new shooter with sub par gear, you're making it sound like agging 2,5" at 1K is no biggie.
We are talking apples and oranges. I said getting a rifle to shoot 1/4" MOA is usually doable without overly expensive reloading gear. Shooting aggs of 2.5" is another story. That requires skill not to be expected from a beginner. My point was that if one can start off with a more accurate load, they have advantages that helps them mask errors over those of someone else (perhaps with better shooting skills) shooting a 1/2" moa rifle. I made no mention of sub par gear, only that one can get 1/4" MOA loads without the best or most expensive reloading gear. I don't feel that to be misleading at all, though there are a lot of folks that do believe it necessary to buy the most expensive gear to do a job that something that costs less will do. It is presumed the person asking the original post was wanting to know how much it would cost get set up for a 1/2" MOA rifle and load - not whether he was going to shoot those groups as a beginner.
 
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Being a good shooter is first, find someone with a rifle that shoots .1's then see if you can shoot .1s..if you can't shoot .1s then money won't matter....that's just me I'm not a good shooter I have my days...disregard this because u can become a great shooter....some people shoot for yrs and never win a simple relay and some peeps just clean house with consistency
 
Sounds like you need to pay more attention the Long Range Benchrest ways of doing things....not score shooters to attain the accuracy levels you're looking for on a consistant bases. Search the latest 1,000 yd
Benchrest accuracy records and average groups. These are the ones that are shooting consistantly around half minute and under. If you did a compsosite of all the groups fired at 1,000yd F-class match the average group would be around 16" to 18" for all the groups fired by all the competitors and this is with experienced 1,000yd shooters with very best of equipment.

20 record shots, though?

My question would be whether BR winning groups can remain .5 moa if they all have to be placed within a certain spot of that size on the target.

I can generally shoot smaller when firing only when the wind conditions seem the same or close, than I can when I’m trying to hit the same “spot” on the target with material changes occurring.

My best groups result from aiming at exactly the same coordinate “speck” of the target, combined with calm wind.

Pair fire forces the F-Class shooter to plow ahead, really, almost never aiming at the same spot.

String fire lets you wait, but not long enough to completely overcome the effects of a barrel getting hotter over 22-30 shots. Groups grow larger as the shot count does, at least until about the same number of shots that they established for our F-Class matches.
 
how much time and money should be spent to get .5 moa. at 1000yrd.??

yes this is my first post and I am a real reloader and honestly want to know.
In complete honesty, that answer is completely dependent on how much time, money and resources you have available to allocate to it. How badly do you need to achieve this goal? How dedicated are you to achieve this goal?

There are hundreds of rabbit holes one could run down or one could just work with the Big, Easy Knobs to try and get there. Myself, I am not going to obtain a second job or a second mortgage to finance it. Not going to dedicate all my waking hours trying to determine how to get there. Though I know a few people that do, or at least it seems that way.
 
My second BR rifle was a Savage Model 12 BR . It averaged under .5 MOA out to 600 right out of the box. I did lighten the trigger and mounted a Nightforce 12X42 BR scope. Of course the barrel gave up a lot sooner than a good after market one.
 

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