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How long does a 308 barrel last in competition?

They make great hunting barrels at 26" or less. Recycled 308 barrels for palma or FTR are great for using in a Tactical or hunting tube after they are done giving its life as a dedicated comp rifle. ( I try to order a longer shank so that I get more use for my money.

I have had recycled rechambered match rifles that shot better the second time around for what ever reason.

Russ T
 
FTR has taught us many things, especially since the target size reduction a few years ago.

1. .298" x .3075" are great for 155 grain bullets but not the choice for 185 - 215 grain bullets.

2. a 1. moa gun want cut the mustard either, your gun needs to be able to shoot sub .5' moa to be competitive with the top shooters.

3. 308 rifles shooting 185grain bullets running 2750 and 200 - 215 grain bullets running 2600 fps are much harder on the equipment. (brass and barrels)

If one bore scopes a 308 with 3000 rounds on it they would be surprised at what they see, I know of no top ranked shooter in FTR going into a Regional or National match with a barrel with over 3000 rounds on it. I know of a few who did and want repeat the same thing again.

It is sad to tell someone you did not win a match because of barrel failure, because it is completely with in your control.

I personally know of some FTR shooters who shot almost new barrels in the rain during a match in Bisley England. They found the results of having water drops in their barrel the hard way. (ruined barrels) You see water does not compress like air and they developed dents inside their bore.

As said there are great expectation differences with different shooting disciplines both shooting the 308 Winchester.

Nat Lambeth
 
Rustystud said:
You see water does not compress like air and they developed dents inside their bore.

No kidding that. One thing I learned after driving my then-newish SAAB 99 thru a hub-deep puddle in April '74. Sucked water into the air intake trumpet, promptly stopped dead.

I had a dog-legged connecting rod around for awhile too to remind me.

When I (seldom) shoot in the rain I'm careful to keep both cartridges and loading port covered as much as possible, muzzle pointed down when not setting up a shot.

Dented bores aren't the only consequence of getting water where you'd rather not have it.
 
Outdoorsman said:
Some 30BR [.308] barrels are still winning after 7000 rounds. :)

Yes, but with 130gn bullets and around (?) 30gn powder. I've known GB TR ('Target Rifle') shooters get to 6,000-7,000 rounds, but that's shooting two to the mound, not string, so barrels don't get nearly as hot over the course of a match. A lot of matches are shot in cool windy conditions too which helps keep temperatures manageable.

Despite rminut's apparent scepticism, the discipline and target size do matter. Speak to TR / Fullbore shooters who stretch barrel life to the limit and they tell you that their elevations start to increase somewhere around the 3,500-4,000 round mark and that if they get to 6,000 or so rounds, they need all 2-MOA of the standard fullbore target. Apart from needing to make a near perfect wind-call every time to avoid the risk of some lost points to elevation fliers, that simply won't work in FTR with a 1-MOA 'Bull' or in the USA, 10-ring! Range is important too - a barrel that still performs reasonably well at 300-600 may be useless at 1,000 - I suspect if you chronograph such a barrel at say ~250 rounds when shooting at its best, then at each subsequent 1,000 rounds, a point will appear where MV ES values start to increase and become progressively worse from there on - not a linear progression either. Most people find that the amount of barrel coppering increases alongside the performance drop-off and problems arise as the barrel sees a copper build-up during the course of a match. When you see a competitor urgently cleaning his barrel between stages in an F-Class fixture, nine times out of ten he'll say the barrel's nearly finished and this is the only way he can keep the elevations acceptable.

As several people have pointed out, propellant choice has a major effect too. Fine powder though H. VarGet is, it has a very high specific energy for a single-base type, 4,050 KJ / Kg (Kilo Joules per Kilogram), H4895 even more at 4,060. That's right up with many hot 'high-energy' types with infused nitroglycerine - Viht N540 is 4,100 and N550 4,050 and higher than many - the Bofors manufactured Alliant Re models all rated at a nominal 3,990. Many single base jobs are cooler burning - N140 and N150 under 3,800. IMR powders are mostly 3,880 and 4007ssc is 'hot' by this manufacturer's stanadards at 3,935.
 
There was a shooter there from the U.K. with a barrel at 10K rounds. Only rifle he brought. Said it would be changed when he got home.
 
wolley said:
There was a shooter there from the U.K. with a barrel at 10K rounds. Only rifle he brought. Said it would be changed when he got home.

Yes, we have a few like that here! I think they all sold me their rifles too in my impecunious youth. :)
 
And RustyStud. Just to clear up what looks like misconceptions in your post above.
I am a sling shooter. I very seldom shoot anything heavier than 155s and if I do it's the Berger 168H.
The testing I did 500 rounds ago was at 200yds. Would you not deem a .844", .40moa group adequate for 1000yds? Especially 10 shots in as many minutes?
 
wolley said:
And RustyStud. Just to clear up what looks like misconceptions in your post above.
I am a sling shooter. I very seldom shoot anything heavier than 155s and if I do it's the Berger 168H.
The testing I did 500 rounds ago was at 200yds. Would you not deem a .844", .40moa group adequate for 1000yds? Especially 10 shots in as many minutes?
[br]
Not if it has an ES >40 fps. You would not see it at 200 yards.
 
I am new to FTR in the 308 (not to precision LR shooting.. was in open before). With all the projections on bore life, I felt great going into the Worlds in Raton 2013 with a barrel in the mid teens. Not a hope.

When the goal is X ring at 1000yds, bores will not last long.

I know this is excessive but being from Canada, the cost to travel would buy you guys a bucket load of barrels. I will now only shoot a barrel in big matches where the bore will END around 1000/1200rds.

Local and smaller matches or closer distances up to 2000rds. Then it goes to be a practise pipe and disposed of whenever it dies.... maybe I get another 1000 rds and toss the pipe around 3k?????

For reference, most top 10 FTR shooters are scoring in the 30 to 50% X count AGG over the course of the Berger SW match. If you want to play with these gents, better have a rifle that can average in the 3's at 1000yds.

Scott Harris, I am amazed your barrel has 3000rds and still shot so well for you. I guess I have had some bad luck with barrels going south way earlier then I would guess. But for now, being overly conservative makes sure I don't have a train wreck when I least expect it.

YMMV...

Jerry
 
I personally wouldn't go to a major match with a barrel that has over 2500 rounds on it but thats just me. After the Berger match last week my barrel is just shy of 900 rounds now. When i go back to the Berger's next year i'll have a new barrel on it by then i'm sure. We shoot year round here with the warm weather and it doesn't take long to build up the round count shooting matches every month.
 
Laurie said:
Outdoorsman said:
Some 30BR [.308] barrels are still winning after 7000 rounds. :)

Yes, but with 130gn bullets and around (?) 30gn powder. I've known GB TR ('Target Rifle') shooters get to 6,000-7,000 rounds, but that's shooting two to the mound, not string, so barrels don't get nearly as hot over the course of a match. A lot of matches are shot in cool windy conditions too which helps keep temperatures manageable.

Despite rminut's apparent scepticism, the discipline and target size do matter. Speak to TR / Fullbore shooters who stretch barrel life to the limit and they tell you that their elevations start to increase somewhere around the 3,500-4,000 round mark and that if they get to 6,000 or so rounds, they need all 2-MOA of the standard fullbore target. Apart from needing to make a near perfect wind-call every time to avoid the risk of some lost points to elevation fliers, that simply won't work in FTR with a 1-MOA 'Bull' or in the USA, 10-ring! Range is important too - a barrel that still performs reasonably well at 300-600 may be useless at 1,000 - I suspect if you chronograph such a barrel at say ~250 rounds when shooting at its best, then at each subsequent 1,000 rounds, a point will appear where MV ES values start to increase and become progressively worse from there on - not a linear progression either. Most people find that the amount of barrel coppering increases alongside the performance drop-off and problems arise as the barrel sees a copper build-up during the course of a match. When you see a competitor urgently cleaning his barrel between stages in an F-Class fixture, nine times out of ten he'll say the barrel's nearly finished and this is the only way he can keep the elevations acceptable.

As several people have pointed out, propellant choice has a major effect too. Fine powder though H. VarGet is, it has a very high specific energy for a single-base type, 4,050 KJ / Kg (Kilo Joules per Kilogram), H4895 even more at 4,060. That's right up with many hot 'high-energy' types with infused nitroglycerine - Viht N540 is 4,100 and N550 4,050 and higher than many - the Bofors manufactured Alliant Re models all rated at a nominal 3,990. Many single base jobs are cooler burning - N140 and N150 under 3,800. IMR powders are mostly 3,880 and 4007ssc is 'hot' by this manufacturer's stanadards at 3,935.

Typically, when competing in Score, 30BR bullets are 112 to 118 grains with 34 to 35 grains of H-4198. Relays are 7 minutes long. Many shooters finish their 5-shot record target [including sighters below] in a minute or two and some in only seconds while conditions hold. Thomas "Speedy" Gonzalez didn't get his nickname by sitting around waiting for barrels to cool or compete only in cool windy weather. Texas can get extremely hot during the competitive season.
 
Very few 1000 yard FTR shooters shoot 155s at that range.
The sling shooter shoot a much different target than FClass shooters. Sling shooters not shooting International Palma are not restricted to 155s. Most don't shoot 308s.
FTR is restricted to 308 Win or 223 Rem. There is a big difference in shooting FClass mid range 300, 500, and 600 and shooting 1000 yds.
Nat Lambeth
 
Typically, when competing in Score, 30BR bullets are 112 to 118 grains with 34 to 35 grains of H-4198. Relays are 7 minutes long. Many shooters finish their 5-shot record target [including sighters below] in a minute or two and some in only seconds while conditions hold. Thomas "Speedy" Gonzalez didn't get his nickname by sitting around waiting for barrels to cool or compete only in cool windy weather. Texas can get extremely hot during the competitive season. [outdoorsman]

Fair enough as they say. Let's run the figures. Using a 118gn Berger over 35gn H4198, QuickLOAD predicts 62,000 psi which doesn't seem unreasonable from my own experience of other BR cartridges. Run this combination through mikecr's barrel life calculator (obtainable if you do a search in the Bulletin elsewhere on this site) and assume a shot every 10 seconds (faster the rate of fire, the lower the life)

Estimate - 5,085 rounds. Pretty well as per what you said.

Run the OP's 308 155gn load through QuiockLOAD and we get a PMax calculation of 58,300 psi - in line too with my own experience and why most FTR shooters use a faster burner than VarGet, (H4895 or IMR-8208 XBR the favourites) to get another 150-200 fps than the TR / Fullbore sling shooters run their smokepoles at, and sticking this lot into the barrel life calculator, we get

a shot every .......

10 secs: 1,188 rounds
20 secs: 2,376 rounds
30 secs: 2,626 rounds

The calculator is a simple model and takes no account of bullet weight. All other things being equal a heavier bullet wears barrels out faster than a light one. But, on the other hand, the slowest rate of fire the model allows is 30 seconds. In the GB two or three on a mound system, extend that to 90 seconds or more which increases barrel life further.

So, to compare .30BR with 118/H4198 to 308 Win with 155/Varget is a total apples and pears job. Varget is a considerably hotter burning powder (4,050 KJ/KG) compared to H4198 (3,860) and the powder charge weight in 308 is 31% higher, but the increase in energy input is of a greater magnitude still. As both cartridges are 30cal, the comparison is valid as the energy is funnelled into the same bore area.

However, as noted, in real life the ultra light (by 308 Win standard) bullet will increase the BR's life even more in practice, and generally short-range BR rifles have short, but fat and heavy barrels - a nice large heat sink. The sling shooter's 308 model normally uses a light or standard Palma profile - longer so total heat abosption may be the same, but likely to get hotter faster in the key are around the throat and chamber as there is a lot less metal around the areas that heat most and whose continued good health are the critical life factor in a well made match barrel.

The calculator figure for 308 with Varget also puts the GB shooter's claim of 10,000 round barrel life in the rifle he used 'there' (the SWN I assume?) While I wouldn't disbelieve him on the basis of what some GB TR shooters squeeze out of their barrels (44gn cool burning Viht N140 and a 155 will see a barrel last a LONG time especially in the UK environment), but I have measured bullet jump to the lands on many genuine high round count GB shooters' barrels and seen some sectioned by gunsmiths / barrelmakers. And believe me, we're not talking thou's or tens of thous freebore in this sort of scenario - it can be an inch plus, and I've seen three inches with no rifling left at all! Amazingly some of these rifles still shoot and hit the black at reassonable distances, but on reflection, I find it very difficult to believe anybody with a true 10,000 round-count barrel being so stupid as to (a) enter one of the world's largest and most prestigiopus L-R match fixtures with its entry of international team level shooters, and (b) fly 6,000 (?) miles to compete in this match with such a barrel!
 
I wish I had read this thread a year ago. I took a Palma rifle with 3500 rounds on it to Perry last year. Cost me big time. Will not make that mistake again.
 
I agree with you Laurie. Nothing past 3000 RDS.
I am waiting for 2 new barrels to arrive. After I index them, one is for competitions only, and the other is for the day to day work.
I shoot every Wednesday the whole morning, every Friday the whole afternoon, every Saturday the whole day and the occasional Sunday the whole day.
Obviously I pile up easily 5000 to 7000 rounds per year. I have made the silly rookie mistake of not stocking chambered barrels so now my barrel has 9925 rds.
Although it just shot 200.12x and 200.15x, I definitely would not compete in a situation that involves responsibility towards others.
Always stock a chambered barrel. Nothing beyond 3000 RDS to compete to win.
 
FTR has taught us many things, especially since the target size reduction a few years ago.

1. .298" x .3075" are great for 155 grain bullets but not the choice for 185 - 215 grain bullets.

2. a 1. moa gun want cut the mustard either, your gun needs to be able to shoot sub .5' moa to be competitive with the top shooters.

3. 308 rifles shooting 185grain bullets running 2750 and 200 - 215 grain bullets running 2600 fps are much harder on the equipment. (brass and barrels)

If one bore scopes a 308 with 3000 rounds on it they would be surprised at what they see, I know of no top ranked shooter in FTR going into a Regional or National match with a barrel with over 3000 rounds on it. I know of a few who did and want repeat the same thing again.

It is sad to tell someone you did not win a match because of barrel failure, because it is completely with in your control.

I personally know of some FTR shooters who shot almost new barrels in the rain during a match in Bisley England. They found the results of having water drops in their barrel the hard way. (ruined barrels) You see water does not compress like air and they developed dents inside their bore.

As said there are great expectation differences with different shooting disciplines both shooting the 308 Winchester.

Nat Lambeth

Good post ^^^^^^^^^^^
 

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