Hornady 88 ELD

[B23]

I wonder if the 30" barrel vs my 24" Barrel is in part of the reason I am not blowing jackets off yet I am running over 3000 fps. Interesting.

You may be on to something there. Awhile back I was having a discussion with one of the Berger techs and I recall him mentioning something about longer barrels being potentially harder on jackets because the bullet spent more time in the barrel.

I'm not sure what all is different about the Sierra's MatchKing bullets but their MK's have always been a bullet that would survive when others failed. I recall Kirby Allen launching 300gr SMK's from his 338AM at 3600fps and they were surviving the trip downrange with no problem.

 

[Geno C]

I have a 1-7 Krieger that I plan on doing this exact test with. It’s a med Palma contour now that can finish at 30”. I’ll chamber it in 22-250ai and hammer in it. We’ll see what explodes and what handles it. Then I’ll chop it down a couple inches at a time to see if that helps keep the weaker jackets together or not. I’ll stop at 19” even if they won’t all stay together though.

My youngest son has a 21” 1-8 in 22-250ai that we’ll throw in the mix too

 

[284winner]

Headed out to the range tomorrow to run the 88s out to 800 yards ( provided they stabilize out to 400 ). Need to fireform some brass so it's a necessary trip. Have a box of 88s getting loaded in some brass tonight. Rain and wind will prove to be a little of a challenge tomorrow but it's a good day to shoot under the cover of a canopy and post target by vehicle. I'll get to see how wind effects these little .224s out to a half mile.

 

[Evan]

Headed out to the range tomorrow to run the 88s out to 800 yards ( provided they stabilize out to 400 ). Need to fireform some brass so it's a necessary trip. Have a box of 88s getting loaded in some brass tonight. Rain and wind will prove to be a little of a challenge tomorrow but it's a good day to shoot under the cover of a canopy and post target by vehicle. I'll get to see how wind effects these little .224s out to a half mile.

I'm very excited to see your results. I've got a bag of the 88s sitting here to try when my 22BR is done.

 

[Yote Hunter]

I’m interested in your results also! I have a 7.5 twist 22-250 Ackley that I was itching to try some in.

 

[r bose]

Yes - the underlying cause is hard to pinpoint with any certainty. I have lost jackets in this rifle (30" barrel, 6.8-twist, 5R Bartlein) with both the 88 ELDMs and 90 VLDs at ~2830 fps and ~2850 fps, respectively. However, the 90 SMKs at 2850 fps don't seem to have the same issue in the rifle, nor do the 95 SMKs at ~2750 fps. It's possible the barrel could be a contributing factor, but my guess is that it's not the sole factor, otherwise you'd think I would be losing jackets with all the bullets for which I've developed loads. If the barrel itself is some part of the problem, it may be that when I spin on the 2nd 6.8-twist barrel, the problem might go away. I have bore-scoped this barrel multiple times and there are no obvious reasons (defects) why it should be causing this problem, but it's hard to say otherwise. What I can say with certainty is that losing a jacket in a match where you were contending for the win is no fun . But I liked the way the 88s tuned in, so I'll eventually try them out of an appropriately-chambered 7-twist barrel and see whether that helps to alleviate the problem.

Ever considered if its the 5R rifling causing jacket failure? I've never lost a jacket with 7 or 6.5 TW, 30" cut barrels standard 4 groove from several manufactures running similar speeds (2850) with 90's in palma guns. Wondering?

 

[284winner]

We'll, the 88s working fine out to 400 yards. Looks like around 1.75"+/- at 400 yards but rain and wind not ideal for accuracy testing. I'm not even gonna worry about getting my groups dialed to center. Just here mainly to see about stability and fire form some brass. Won't get it out to 800 today. Way too much water past 500. Drier conditions later this month I'll be back. Great news tho with the 8 twist and the 88s. Average velocity was 3360. Still gonna play with loads for better accuracy. OAL for that load is 2.75

 

[Ned Ludd]

Ever considered if its the 5R rifling causing jacket failure? I've never lost a jacket with 7 or 6.5 TW, 30" cut barrels standard 4 groove from several manufactures running similar speeds (2850) with 90's in palma guns. Wondering?

I suppose it could be the 5R. However, 5R is supposed to be relatively easy on jackets. With the 88s I can't say, but I've talked with several other people having the same issue with Berger 90 VLDs, and jacket failure was almost universally a combination of driving them at 2825+ fps and a twist rate faster than 7.0, regardless of the actual type of rifling. The easiest fix is simply to run a 7-twist barrel and use a powder that tunes in a bit slower than H4895. Unfortunately, my 6.8 twist barrel is only about half used up and I have another identical barrel already chambered and cut for the tuner. That's a fair bit of coin invested in those barrels to simply walk away from them. Hence, the reason for trying other bullets, or different powders with the 90 VLDs to slow them down a bit without giving up so much performance that the setup is no longer competitive in F-TR against .308s with heavy bullets. I've been working with the 90 SMKs and so far have not had any jacket issues, even pushing them at ~2850 fps with H4895. So that might be the ticket for using up these two barrels before I ultimately replace them with 7-twist barrels.

 

[284winner]

I suppose it could be the 5R. However, 5R is supposed to be relatively easy on jackets. With the 88s I can't say, but I've talked with several other people having the same issue with Berger 90 VLDs, and jacket failure was almost universally a combination of driving them at 2825+ fps and a twist rate faster than 7.0, regardless of the actual type of rifling. The easiest fix is simply to run a 7-twist barrel and use a powder that tunes in a bit slower than H4895. Unfortunately, my 6.8 twist barrel is only about half used up and I have another identical barrel already chambered and cut for the tuner. That's a fair bit of coin invested in those barrels to simply walk away from them. Hence, the reason for trying other bullets, or different powders with the 90 VLDs to slow them down a bit without giving up so much performance that the setup is no longer competitive in F-TR against .308s with heavy bullets. I've been working with the 90 SMKs and so far have not had any jacket issues, even pushing them at ~2850 fps with H4895. So that might be the ticket for using up these two barrels before I ultimately replace them with 7-twist barrels.

I find the 5C canted land barrels that Tim makes at Broughton barrels are very easy on bullets also. Typically faster than most other barrels I've shot also.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I find the 5C canted land barrels that Tim makes at Broughton barrels are very easy on bullets also. Typically faster than most other barrels I've shot also.

I've recently heard very good things about the Broughton 5C barrels, although I haven't used one as yet. They definitely would be worth a go for the bullets I've had issues with in the 6.8-twist 5R barrels. I suspect the biggest improvement will be simply not to use faster than a 7.0-twist barrel with the .224 heavies, regardless of the manufacturer. I've used 7.0-twist 5Rs for quite some time and never had any issue with 90 VLDs. The only reason I went with the 6.8-twist barrels for my latest .223 Rem rifle was simply that on paper, a 7.0-twist doesn't quite net all the intrinsic BC of the 90 VLDs. The notion of potential jacket failure wasn't even on my radar at the time I ordered it. In retrospect, there is no reason to utilize a twist rate faster than 7.0; it simply isn't necessary. I've won a lot of matches shooting 90 VLDs out of a 7.0-twist barrel. Even if they are giving up a slight amount of the BC, it's not worth talking about. Live and learn, I guess.

 

[284winner]

I don't own any .224 barrels made by Broughton. Can't say I've had any jacket failures on any barrels period. Then again I don't own any 6-7 twist barrels. The 5C barrel would be the barrel I would consider with the same twist as one that's causing jacket failure simply to see if that is the problem. I have zero experience in that area but I suppose eliminating possibilities one by one would be the thing to do. The Broughton's are fast barrels and clean easier than any I own. I have Shilen's, Bartlein's, Brux, Douglas, CBI and Kreiger barrels and all are unbelievable barrels. Have no complaints on any of them. Hope to keep it that way.

 

[JAlfred]

As the twist tighten, it does the change in vectors of the forces acting against that bullet in the bore cause more damage? >-- vs >/ vs >l. Just brain farting on vacation.

 

[KS6.5SHTR]

That's great to hear. I'm going to start out with 88 ELDM in my 22BR. I've had wonderful results with A MAX in the past and the 147eldm more recently in other rifles. They've been easy to tune and they aren't fussy with seating depth: I've not had to chase the lands all the time to maintain accuracy. I'm hoping that by shooting 88s in the 5R 7 twist at a slower pace and making sure to clean frequently, I'll not have any problems. I'm also not planning to step on it. If 2850 yields great accuracy, I won't bother venturing much higher.

Are there any known nodes for the 88s that frequently work well?

I run the 88 ELDM in a 22BR, 1-7 5R Bartlein. I started with H4895, CCI 450, virgin brass, and was getting 3005fps with 26.8 grains. With fired brass, I had to go up to 27.3 grains to get the same velocity. SD is 3-6 and I shot .584" and .258" 3 shot groups at 402 yards while prepping for a ladder. My barrel is 26" and I have run it braked and suppressed for local PRS matches. I am using the standard 22BR reamer from Manson.

 

[KS6.5SHTR]

28.8 grains of Varget is a load a lot of guys run. I got 3075 fps and a SD of 6, but the accuracy was better with H4895 and I have a lot of it.

Those groups were shot with mangled bullets that I pullet with a collet puller that had been seated with the wrong stem.

 

[FrankG]

A manufacture (not allowed to say whom) is running a test right now. Our barrels, standard .219” bore and 5R rifling and if memory serves me right is a 1-6 twist. .223 is the caliber and they are running bullets just shy of 2900fps. No Hornady 88gr bullets have failed and no Sierra bullets have failed. Will be testing Bergers next. The one barrel is set up as a FTR gun and just recently won a mid range F class match. That being said....

The 5R rifling does help fight bullet failure. Even the 5C rifling will the only difference there is the 5C doesn’t have the angle on the trailing side of the land.

Things that work against you....a tight bore barrel (I don’t recommend the .218” bores etc...), even groove rifling, and yes as mentioned longer barrel lengths, high velocity and really fast twist rates and the bullets themselves.

Also keep in mind how many rounds are on the barrel. The higher the round count the rougher the throat is going to get and will beat the bullets up more which will cause failures. Poor chambering jobs (reamer leaves a really rough throat) or damage from cleaning or from when the barrel was made.

Sometimes there are more than one factor that will contribute to the problem as well.

Do some simple math.....at 2700fps in a 8 twist barrel the bullet comes out spinning at 243,000rpm

2700fps in a 7 twist barrel comes out at 277,714rpm

2700fps in a 6.5 twist barrel comes out at 299,076rpm

2900fps in a 7 twist barrel comes out at 298,285rpm.

Also I feel we ask a lot out of the bullets and we all tend to push them too much!

Compare those numbers to a .308win at 2700fps in a 10 twist barrel....bullet is only coming out at 194,400rpm.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Ned Ludd]

A manufacture (not allowed to say whom) is running a test right now. Our barrels, standard .219” bore and 5R rifling and if memory serves me right is a 1-6 twist. .223 is the caliber and they are running bullets just shy of 2900fps. No Hornady 88gr bullets have failed and no Sierra bullets have failed. Will be testing Bergers next. The one barrel is set up as a FTR gun and just recently won a mid range F class match. That being said....

The 5R rifling does help fight bullet failure. Even the 5C rifling will the only difference there is the 5C doesn’t have the angle on the trailing side of the land.

Things that work against you....a tight bore barrel (I don’t recommend the .218” bores etc...), even groove rifling, and yes as mentioned longer barrel lengths, high velocity and really fast twist rates and the bullets themselves.

Also keep in mind how many rounds are on the barrel. The higher the round count the rougher the throat is going to get and will beat the bullets up more which will cause failures. Poor chambering jobs (reamer leaves a really rough throat) or damage from cleaning or from when the barrel was made.

Sometimes there are more than one factor that will contribute to the problem as well.

Do some simple math.....at 2700fps in a 8 twist barrel the bullet comes out spinning at 243,000rpm

2700fps in a 7 twist barrel comes out at 277,714rpm

2700fps in a 6.5 twist barrel comes out at 299,076rpm

2900fps in a 7 twist barrel comes out at 298,285rpm.

Also I feel we ask a lot out of the bullets and we all tend to push them too much!

Compare those numbers to a .308win at 2700fps in a 10 twist barrel....bullet is only coming out at 194,400rpm.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

I think you've hit the nail on the head here Frank. My understanding was that a .218"/.224" bore/groove configuration was "standard" for .224" bullets (i.e. - I had never considered .218" as "tight"). However, Bartlien lists both .218"/.219" as possible bore dimensions for CF cartridge .22 cal barrels, so that was incorrect. FWIW - I have had jacket failures with both the Berger 90 VLDs and Hornady 88 ELDMs from a 6.8-twist .218"/.224" 5R barrel.

From posts here and discussions with bullet manufacturers, it seems as though jacket failures almost always occur along the edges of land engraving marks. In fact, there is an older post here [entitled Comet Tails?] somewhere that shows frictional heating of the jacket in the grooves along the bearing surface hot enough to vaporize a small quantity of the surface of the lead core underneath. Apparently, if the vaporized lead finds a small perforation or crack along the engraving mark, it will spew out, leaving a black "comet tail" marking on the target face if the bullet actually survives all the way to the target. I say "if", because apparently this phenomena is the prelude to jacket failure.

A friend has recently been shooting the 88 ELDMs from a fast twist (< 6.5) barrel with 0.219" bore dimension with excellent results, at velocities comparable to those where I had jacket failures from my 6.8-twist, .218"/.224" barrel (~2850 fps from a 30" barrel). Presumably, the 0.219" bore produces less friction than the tighter .218" bore and allows the jackets to survive, even at a faster twist rate. In the future, I will not go with a twist rate faster than 7.0 in a .218"/.224 barrel, and may well switch over to a .219"/.224" configuration. There's nothing worse than being in contention for the win in a match, and taking a shot, but the target doesn't go down because the bullet never made it. In this day and age, even a single jacket failure means the loss of 10 points and any chance of winning a typical F-Class match.

 

[FrankG]

The .218” bore even though it’s only a .001” tighter and it’s a .0005” a side on the bullet etc...will cut deeper into the jacket of the bullet.

Same reason I don’t like the tight .236” bore 6mm’s and I’ve seen barrel makers even making .235” bore 6mm’s and tight bore 6.5’s. Your just asking for problems.

Yes the roughness on the driving side of the land either from damage or shooting etc...will also put stress on the bullet jacket as well.

The comet trail as you said.....yes it’s the molten lead leaking out the bullets jacket where it failed....looks just like a tracer round going down range....once the lead is gone the jacket disintegrates.

The Berger 90gr bullets have a high failure rate. As far as I know nothing has been done to try and improve them. I”m not a bullet maker but from what I’ve seen, heard etc...nothing has been done to improve the 90gr Bergers. Not knocking Berger at all. It will be interesting to hear on the Berger 90’s hold up in the testing once done.

 

[FrankG]

The .218” bore even though it’s only a .001” tighter and it’s a .0005” a side on the bullet etc...will cut deeper into the jacket of the bullet.

Same reason I don’t like the tight .236” bore 6mm’s and I’ve seen barrel makers even making .235” bore 6mm’s and tight bore 6.5’s. Your just asking for problems.

Yes the roughness on the driving side of the land either from damage or shooting etc...will also put stress on the bullet jacket as well.

The comet trail as you said.....yes it’s the molten lead leaking out the bullets jacket where it failed....looks just like a tracer round going down range....once the lead is gone the jacket disintegrates.

The Berger 90gr bullets have a high failure rate. As far as I know nothing has been done to try and improve them. I”m not a bullet maker but from what I’ve seen, heard etc...nothing has been done to improve the 90gr Bergers. Not knocking Berger at all. It will be interesting to hear on the Berger 90’s hold up in the testing once done.

 

[Farmerboy78]

I run the 88gr is a 7twist 22-250 with great results! 6 shots in the group

 

[284winner]

I run the 88gr is a 7twist 22-250 with great results! 6 shots in the group

Nice results.