Hornady 88 ELD

[fantastic]

I too tried the 88 ELD's this morning. Ran them through a Rem 700 with a 25" varmint contour 1-7 twist McGowen barrel. I chambered it with a PTG match Valkyrie bolt-gun match reamer, .050 free bore. The 88's shot a .34 group at 100 yards. Once I shot them at 500 and 800, things fell apart. I could not keep them on an 18x24 steel plate. I also tried the Hornady factory load and it too had the same problem. Just for reference, I shot the Federal 90gr MatchKings and no problems. At 500 they stayed inside 1.5" with little effort. It seems the Hornady 88 is just a little too long for a 1-7 twist. This is confirmed by the Berger website that indicates the stability is marginal. Running the Sierra 90 through the same program indicates that it is very stable. So for now, the Hornady's are getting set aside and I'm sticking with the Sierra's. As far as I can tell, the Hornady's are going to need a 6.7 twist or 6.5 barrel to shoot at extended ranges. Here is the load info:

Hornady 88gr ELD
Aliant 2000MR 25.5gr
CCI 41
Starline brass
Col 2.290 .060 off the lands
Vel 2720

 

[Farmerboy78]

I too tried the 88 ELD's this morning. Ran them through a Rem 700 with a 25" varmint contour 1-7 twist McGowen barrel. I chambered it with a PTG match Valkyrie bolt-gun match reamer, .050 free bore. The 88's shot a .34 group at 100 yards. Once I shot them at 500 and 800, things fell apart. I could not keep them on an 18x24 steel plate. I also tried the Hornady factory load and it too had the same problem. Just for reference, I shot the Federal 90gr MatchKings and no problems. At 500 they stayed inside 1.5" with little effort. It seems the Hornady 88 is just a little too long for a 1-7 twist. This is confirmed by the Berger website that indicates the stability is marginal. Running the Sierra 90 through the same program indicates that it is very stable. So for now, the Hornady's are getting set aside and I'm sticking with the Sierra's. As far as I can tell, the Hornady's are going to need a 6.7 twist or 6.5 barrel to shoot at extended ranges. Here is the load info:

Hornady 88gr ELD
Aliant 2000MR 25.5gr
CCI 41
Starline brass
Col 2.290 .060 off the lands
Vel 2720

I'm just over 2900 fps and have a stability factor of 1.51

 

[284winner]

I too tried the 88 ELD's this morning. Ran them through a Rem 700 with a 25" varmint contour 1-7 twist McGowen barrel. I chambered it with a PTG match Valkyrie bolt-gun match reamer, .050 free bore. The 88's shot a .34 group at 100 yards. Once I shot them at 500 and 800, things fell apart. I could not keep them on an 18x24 steel plate. I also tried the Hornady factory load and it too had the same problem. Just for reference, I shot the Federal 90gr MatchKings and no problems. At 500 they stayed inside 1.5" with little effort. It seems the Hornady 88 is just a little too long for a 1-7 twist. This is confirmed by the Berger website that indicates the stability is marginal. Running the Sierra 90 through the same program indicates that it is very stable. So for now, the Hornady's are getting set aside and I'm sticking with the Sierra's. As far as I can tell, the Hornady's are going to need a 6.7 twist or 6.5 barrel to shoot at extended ranges. Here is the load info:

Hornady 88gr ELD
Aliant 2000MR 25.5gr
CCI 41
Starline brass
Col 2.290 .060 off the lands
Vel 2720

1/8 twist 22-250 AI/30" barrel/88 ELDs @3470 awesome out to 800 yards. The 1000 yard test will be next.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I too tried the 88 ELD's this morning. Ran them through a Rem 700 with a 25" varmint contour 1-7 twist McGowen barrel. I chambered it with a PTG match Valkyrie bolt-gun match reamer, .050 free bore. The 88's shot a .34 group at 100 yards. Once I shot them at 500 and 800, things fell apart. I could not keep them on an 18x24 steel plate. I also tried the Hornady factory load and it too had the same problem. Just for reference, I shot the Federal 90gr MatchKings and no problems. At 500 they stayed inside 1.5" with little effort. It seems the Hornady 88 is just a little too long for a 1-7 twist. This is confirmed by the Berger website that indicates the stability is marginal. Running the Sierra 90 through the same program indicates that it is very stable. So for now, the Hornady's are getting set aside and I'm sticking with the Sierra's. As far as I can tell, the Hornady's are going to need a 6.7 twist or 6.5 barrel to shoot at extended ranges. Here is the load info:

Hornady 88gr ELD
Aliant 2000MR 25.5gr
CCI 41
Starline brass
Col 2.290 .060 off the lands
Vel 2720

Gyroscopic stability normally increases with distance, as a bullet's linear velocity generally decays faster than its rotational velocity. Hornady's ballistic calculator indicates an Sg of 1.41 for the 88 at 2720 fps from a 7-twist barrel (at the muzzle, 60 degrees F, 500 ft elevation). Although an Sg of ~1.4 means you might be giving up a very slight amount of the intrinsic BC, it is nowhere near a value (Sg of ~1.1 or less) where the bullet would become markedly unstable. That suggests to me that there was potentially some other factor responsible for your results at 500-800 yd.

FWIW - 7-twist should be plenty for the 88 ELDM. In fact, running them at ~2825 fps from a 30" 6.8-twist barrel has led to jacket failures in my hands. You might get away with running them at a lower velocity (2720 fps) with a twist rate faster than 7.0, but I wouldn't recommend going overboard with the twist rate as jacket failure may again become an issue, even with the lower velocity. Generally, increasing the twist rate by a very small amount such as couple or three tenths is not going to make the difference between the bullet being stable versus tumbling/keyholing on the way to the target unless it was already right on the edge of instability. That shouldn't be the case with the 88s in a 7-twist barrel at 2720 fps.

Just out of curiosity, did any of your shots with the 88s actually hit the steel target? I'm wondering whether you might not have also been experiencing jacket failure issues, which would certainly explain not hitting the target at longer range. I've had a couple that actually hit a target at 115 yd, but the POI was almost 1.5 ft away from the POA, and the shape of the hole in the target made it clear that jacket was coming apart. It's not uncommon for a jacket failure to give a little blueish-white "puff" about 50 yd downrange, whereupon the bullet remnants (i.e. core or jacket fragments) go flying offline and may not even hit a target at 100 yd or further. One additional thing you might check is the shape of the 88 ELDM bullet holes fired at the 100 yd target. If the gyroscopic stability from the 7-twist barrel was so low as to cause them to miss past 500 yd, it is very likely that the holes will oblong or slightly oval in appearance, even at only 100 yd.

 

[284winner]

I'd be concerned if I had a 7 twist Barrel on my 22-250 Ackley improved. I'm sure bullets wouldn't hold together at those speeds and RPMs.

 

[DukeDuke]

I like the 88 eld's they work great out of 1 in 7" twist, as do the 95 SMK's!

 

[manitou210]

88GR
HORNADYS 5 shot goupe at 100y
Varget in 223 rem 1/7 twist Bart lien Barnard action throated for 90 gr Bergers only tested with 23.4 grs, shot these at 900m worked quite well
would be fine on mild wind days, but the 90 bergers are touch better at 900m

 

[Hohn]

That good shooting, Manitou.

I’m shooting 88s in a midrange match this weekend, first time in a load with not much development.

 

[paperpuncher]

88GR
HORNADYS 5 shot goupe at 100y
Varget in 223 rem 1/7 twist Bart lien Barnard action throated for 90 gr Bergers only tested with 23.4 grs, shot these at 900m worked quite well
would be fine on mild wind days, but the 90 bergers are touch better at 900m

If you dont mind me asking how are you seating the bullets in terms of jump? Nice group!

 

[manitou210]

If you dont mind me asking how are you seating the bullets in terms of jump? Nice group!

10k in

 

[paperpuncher]

10k in

Thanks Going to try some in my new tube I have a 7 twist 4 groove .218"/.224" Bartlien I put on. Probably not the ideal configuration but ill give it a go

 

[Hohn]

Well, Atterbury dished out some of its famous humble pie today in the form of wind that just doesn’t let up— until it does and you drop a 7 or 8.

Rough day for f class and sling shooters alike.

My 88 load was not good. I was basically taking up the whole 9 ring (f class) of vertical. Silver mountain targets were showing 1900+ FPS impact at 600, which is 200+ FPS over what I was getting with 80s in a shorter bbl. I’m not sure how accurate those speeds are. The 88s definitely have the BC. But I’ll need to work on my load with them.

SD as reported by the target was pretty poor too. But this too seems sketchy. How does the same load go from SD of 17 to 64 on different strings?

Started with a 187 but each string got worse and I limped out the last 600 in the upper 70s.

This was the kind of day that makes you think about stepping up from .223

 

[Dgd6mm]

Hohn, Days like that make me realize just how good or actually bad of a shooter I am, when I shoot my .223 for mid range....which is like 99% 0f the time. Is it possible your higher SD numbers are due to a larger sample? I've been behind the 8 ball for a while now. I've been shooting 75 Amax for a while, they will give me HM scores at 300, but definitely fall off at 600. Because of having an 8 twist I tried the 80 Hornaday eldm last 600 and all 3 relays I was able to stay in the low 190's. I'm happy with this and will improve my load (no real testing before 600). I'm considering a 7 twist and the 88 eldm.

Don Dunlap

 

[Hohn]

I’m not sure what to think about the SDs here. I don’t know that I can trust the silver mountain speeds. Actual chrono data in same brass and techniques and such puts me at 25fps SDs. Not great, but much better than some SMT strings show.

I definitely have a lot to learn about wind reading and trigger pulling, but my load here isn’t as good as what I’ve already proved I can load. More to come.

 

[Midnightmedic]

I’m not sure what to think about the SDs here. I don’t know that I can trust the silver mountain speeds. Actual chrono data in same brass and techniques and such puts me at 25fps SDs. Not great, but much better than some SMT strings show.

I definitely have a lot to learn about wind reading and trigger pulling, but my load here isn’t as good as what I’ve already proved I can load. More to come.

The sd from a chrono at the muzzle reflects mostly load variance and some gun handling in the rest variance. Sd at a 600 yard target reflects above variances PLUS all the atmospheric variance the bullet flew through. I would suspect your relay with 17sd had easier wind condition and the relay with sd64 had the worst. Can be a great practice aid to reading atmospheric changes that are happening between you and the target.
For me, a windy day just guarantees a stop at the liquor store on the way home from the range.

 

[swimster]

I run the 88gr is a 7twist 22-250 with great results! 6 shots in the group

I've been trying to get the 88s shooting in my 22/250 ai with 7 twist Brux 28 inch. Just can't seem to get it dialed in. I've been. Using RL-22 velocity is around 3200 ES 19 Sds near 10. Tried seating depths from touching to off the lands 60 th. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Evan]

I've been trying to get the 88s shooting in my 22/250 ai with 7 twist Brux 28 inch. Just can't seem to get it dialed in. I've been. Using RL-22 velocity is around 3200 ES 19 Sds near 10. Tried seating depths from touching to off the lands 60 th. Any input is appreciated.

Try a different powder. Your rifle may not like RL22 much. IMR4350 or H4831sc may surprise you.

EDIT: My 22BR shot RL-17 and RL-16 very poorly - ~1" at 300 yards. IMR4350 shoots 0.5" or less at 300. The 88 is not jump sensitive. I found that it liked a little jump though - 0.020"

 

[Hohn]

Try a different powder. Your rifle may not like RL22 much. IMR4350 or H4831sc may surprise you.

EDIT: My 22BR shot RL-17 and RL-16 very poorly - ~1" at 300 yards. IMR4350 shoots 0.5" or less at 300. The 88 is not jump sensitive. I found that it liked a little jump though - 0.020"

I"m still trying to absorb the idea that 1" at 300y is "poor". Wish I had that "problem"!

 

[Evan]

I"m still trying to absorb the idea that 1" at 300y is "poor". Wish I had that "problem"!

It's only poor when the group immediately prior with Varget, or the group before that one with IMR4350 shot 0.5" and you step over to your RL-17 or RL-16 load and the groups suddenly double in size. I did a full work up on both and never got it to shrink down under an inch. With Varget and IMR4350, it immediately shot tiny without trying. This was the first gun to show me so clearly that it preferred one type of powder over another. In the past the difference was much smaller between my "best" and "worst" powder, and usually powders of the same general burn rate worked comparably well. Here I am with the gun clearly choosing two powders over the others! I stopped with Varget because I don't have much, it burns hotter, and I have a little stash of IMR4350 from the same lot number that will burn out this barrel with enough left over for my 30-06.

 

[swimster]

Try a different powder. Your rifle may not like RL22 much. IMR4350 or H4831sc may surprise you.

EDIT: My 22BR shot RL-17 and RL-16 very poorly - ~1" at 300 yards. IMR4350 shoots 0.5" or less at 300. The 88 is not jump sensitive. I found that it liked a little jump though - 0.020"

I tried H 4350 but could not get the velocity over 3100 with out getting pressure and groups were about the same as Rl 22. I've switched to 75g Amaxes and H4350. groups are alot better tinkering with seating now. They are running 3420 fps and getting 5 shot 3/4 inch groups at 150y. They give up little to the 88s at that velocity. Thanks for the reply. If I switch back to the 88s I'll give H 4831 or H414 z try had pretty good results with 414 and 80s in my last 250Ai barrel.