Help! Correct annealing torch height?

[hkfan45]

I have a Bench Source annealer, and am having difficulty figuring out how high to adjust the torches. From reading the Bench Source manual, it says to position torch so that flame hits the midpoint of the shoulder. However, i've read other sources that say to position torch so that it hits the middle of the case neck. Exactly how low should the inner blue flame (pencil) be on the case?

See my picture below which was taken from the side of the torch head at the same height to give an accurate depiction of how I have adjusted the torch. Note, the case in the picture was annealed at this height.

Thanks for the help.

 

[jonbearman]

Shoulder neck junction works for me.

 

[jlow]

Not saying this is right but I put one torch on the middle of the shoulder and the other on the middle of the neck. My rationale is I wanted to avoid a hot spot in the middle of the shoulder since I wanted both the shoulders and neck annealed evenly. Heat them in the dark with the lights off and back off ¼ second from the time that will cause the brass to give a slight glow.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If you already have literature from your annealer manufacturer telling you where to put the tip of the flame, why are you asking? Are you not getting good results using their method?
If you have no data to dispute the manufacturer, use their recommendation.

 

[hkfan45]

If you already have literature from your annealer manufacturer telling you where to put the tip of the flame, why are you asking? Are you not getting good results using their method?
If you have no data to dispute the manufacturer, use their recommendation.

My problem is I am having trouble interpreting what the manual says, hence my photo showing my setup.

Does my torch look too low? Is it ok if some of them outer blue flame rolls down to the top of the case body?

 

[hkfan45]

Not saying this is right but I put one torch on the middle of the shoulder and the other on the middle of the neck. My rationale is I wanted to avoid a hot spot in the middle of the shoulder since I wanted both the shoulders and neck annealed evenly. Heat them in the dark with the lights off and back off ¼ second from the time that will cause the brass to give a slight glow.

When you say middle of the shoulder, do you mean the tip of the inner pencil flame intersecting the middle of the shoulder? Or the outer blue flame?

 

[jlow]

Normally you are looking for a flame with something like a ½ to ¾ inch inner blue pencil flame, then adjust the position of the torch so that the lighter color outer buffy tip (not the inner blue pencil flame area as that is too hot) is on your brass.

One way you can tell is if you do what I mentioned earlier i.e. do it in the dark and looking for the start of the slight redness, if you end up needing a really short time i.e. less than a couple of seconds, it is too hot. The other thing to keep in mind is to allow the torch to burn for a few minutes to ensure that its output is stable before using it.

 

[FeMan]

That looks about right to me for height.

 

[ridgeway]

Looks too low to me. Appears you will hit the shoulder the way you have it. Put the blue tip in the middle of the neck.

 

[jlow]

It’s generally hard to tell looking off angle like this. What I usually do is to put the piece of brass between me and the torch head and adjust the aim of the torch at my eye through the brass. This is really a rough start and the final fine aiming is best done using a waste piece of brass at the annealing location. This is because you have to not only adjust aim but flame size and how the right part of the flame touch the right location. That and annealing duration is best done with waste brass – I have a batch that I keep on hand for that exact purpose and they can be used over and over again.

 

[TimP]

When I talked to the owner of Bench Source awhile back he said to aim one torch at the shoulder body junction and the other mid shoulder. To do this I first aim the torches by site then use "waste" brass to fine tune torch placement as well. I also anneal in a dark room and watch for the slightest hint of dull red and then turn down the timer 2/10 of a second.

 

[BCoates]

Not trying to highjack your thread, but I also had this question. Also, how close should the tip of the inner blue flame be to the case?

 

[spclark]

Hardware store propane / air torches usually provide a 2-part flame pattern. If that's what you see - a sharp, bluer cone inside a larger, rounder & paler blue cone - the hottest temp is just at or a little in front of that inner cone's very tip.

If you want to anneal necks only, aim that cone just above the shoulder / neck transition; heat will travel forward and backward so the case mouth will get hotter faster but the shoulder will get hot too if 'dwell time' is prolonged.

You can aim that cone tip at the shoulder instead & anneal both it and the neck at the same time. This is what I do both to control neck hardness as well as how the shoulders respond in a sizing die.

Using two torches will significantly reduce necessary dwell time as you can work both areas of each case with independent heat sources (which can and ought to be adjusted appropriately) OR direct both torches at one or the other area, depending on what you want to accomplish.

My sense of distance from case to cone tip is that it should be close - no more than maybe 1/8", otherwise the flamespread gets too diffuse which requires too long a dwell time allowing heat to propagate beyond where it's desired.

If I had one of these dual-torch devices I'd try first to do what I wish to with just one torch while I learn how the brass behaves afterward. Knowing a second torch is available should it be needed would be reassuring, but then I've been satisfied with my results with a single torch & drill + socket case holder for years....

 

[jlow]

The guy who builds and sells the BenchSource says to use the lighter color outer buffy tip and not the inner blue pencil flame. Just remember that the most important reason for most people buying an annealing machine is to get more consistent annealing. To get this, you do not want to go fast as the less number of rotation before it anneals, the less even the anneal. This is the reason why you do not want to use the hotter part of the flame so that you get the longer 3-4 second anneal. The slightly longer time will make the overall job slightly longer but since most of us don’t anneal thousands of cases in a sitting, it matter little.

 

[spclark]

...as the less number of rotation before it anneals, the less even the anneal. This is the reason why you do not want to use the hotter part of the flame so that you get the longer 3-4 second anneal.

I understand the logic behind that suggested technique with an automated case annealer.

Where one is using a single torch however, results may be better with the hotter, inner flame IF - as I do - cases are spun at a rate closer to 60 - 100 rpm.

Without access to yet another costly device for testing both degree and evenness of annealing it's pretty much up to results on target and how long cases last that for me is how I evaluate whether my practices are sufficient.

 

[jlow]

...as the less number of rotation before it anneals, the less even the anneal. This is the reason why you do not want to use the hotter part of the flame so that you get the longer 3-4 second anneal.

I understand the logic behind that suggested technique with an automated case annealer.

Where one is using a single torch however, results may be better with the hotter, inner flame IF - as I do - cases are spun at a rate closer to 60 - 100 rpm.

Without access to yet another costly device for testing both degree and evenness of annealing it's pretty much up to results on target and how long cases last that for me is how I evaluate whether my practices are sufficient.

I guess I was looking at this thread as not a general thread on annealing but answers specific for the OP who has a BenchSource with two torches.

 

[brian427cobra]

One little trick I do is to stack 1/2 inch washers on the torch head rods so my height rock solid repeatable when changing cartriges, I either add or subtract washers to correctly position my torch heads vertically

 

[gotcha]

I Agree the torch angle can be hard to read no matter which method used. I found that a fired 9mm luger case fit snuggly into the torch tip. (mouth 1st) I then pushed a straw from an aerosol into the flash hole (nice snug fit) and adjusted the length to approximate the cone length desired. It works well & reduces the number of "oh shucks" cases. I have enough fouler/sight-in cases as it is :

 

[Erik Cortina]

You guys are making this a lot harder than it needs to be.

I start machine with brass loaded and on first case as it is turning I aim torches at shoulder. The case rotates for 5 seconds and that is all the time I need to set up torches. Heat will migrate to the neck anyway, so it is not super critical as long as you don't aim it too far down the body of the case.

I set up my blue flame tip to just touch the cases as I find that easy to repeat and adjust timer from there.

If you haven't done this much, get yourself 5 old cases and set timer at max. Use the 5 cases to adjust torch angle and set those 5 cases aside for next time. After a while you will no longer need them.

 

[marwitz89]

Erik, are you using tempilaq crayon or liquid to get the correct temperature? Can you explain how you do that?

Thanks,
Joe