Hard time choosing a barrel & chamber reamer: long range M14 clone

[tonyben]

I'm building my dream rifle right now. I've got a match-ready service rifle already and my next one will be a modern M14 in a SAGE chassis system. I've got all the major components already for a functional rifle with the exception of the barrel:

Receiver: LRB M25 no-lug
Op-rod: Winchester
Bolt: New (old stock) TRW
Trigger group: GI H&R
Gas system: New (old stock) GI

I'll be buying the chassis and scope within the next 2 years. I have a couple of traditional stocks that will get me started as well as a Zeiss 3-9x50. I'll eventually go with most likely a Night Force scope (Haven't decided which one yet). Sage chassis M14's rebuilt by the government with old GI profile chrome lined barrels are averaging 3/4" at 100yds with M118LR ammo. I expect to do better.

I've decided on a heavy match 22" chrome moly barrel. The purpose of this build is to create the most accurate long range M14 that can be made, regardless of weight. I'd like it to be capable of ranges out to 1200yds. I will be running strictly handloads from 135 SMK flat base for 100 - 300 yards to 185 Berger Hybrids. I'll modify the gas system as needed.

I can't decide on a Kreiger or a Satern barrel. I also can't decide on a twist rate. I was set on a 1:10 until I asked about what chamber reamer to use when a champion shooter told me he recommended a Kreiger 1:12, especially since I'll be running 185 hybrids. If I use SMK's I won't be using anything heavier than 175's. I'll mostly be running 168's since I have 1500 of those on hand right now.

I'm budgeting 4 years and $6,000 for this build. I just started collecting parts in October. I'll be ready to order the barrel by May. I probably won't be ready to install the barrel until September or October.

So from an accuracy perspective, what twist rate and chamber reamer would you guys recommend for ?

And as far as my shooting abilities, I can personally hold approximately 1" 5-shot groups with iron sights using my glass bedded M14 right now. So, in essence, I'm an iron sight service rifle shooter building a scoped modern day battle rifle. My longest distance shot to date with iron sights is 675yds.

Thanks,
Tony.

 

[6fatrat]

You will need the 10 twist! Both barrel choices are good,you will need more freebore and a longer throat for the 185's as well as modifying the gas system. If you intend to shoot this in the Service gun long range matches it must conform to M-14 specs.

 

[jonbearman]

It isn't really a clone,it's made out of the real parts the military is buying up such as the LRB reciever.I wish you the best as it will be a very accurate rifle.If it conforms to the rule's then you can go to camp perry and show them how it is done.It will also be ready to shoot CMP matche's as well. So good luck and keep us imformed.Personally I would opt for the kreiger and it wont disappoint you in any way.

 

[XTR]

How tolerant of jumping are the 135s? If you want to drive the 185s you'll need to get them out of the case. I don't know what the ideal throat is for the 185 Hybrid, but the 185LRBT is .168 freebore. That's a whole lot more than the reamers traditionally used for the 155 class bullets. For comparison the Bisley and the 95 Palma are at like .050 or .080 or something like that.

If you throat it for the 135s the 185 will be way back in the case, if you go the other way the 135s will be jumping like grasshoppers.

Edit:I was going to write that you don't need a 1:10 if you aren't shooting anything heaver than the 185s, but I'm not certain what MV you'll be able to get with the short barrel. I know a number of people who have successfully shot the 185s out of long barrels with 1:12 twists, but they are probably getting 200FPS or more MV than you will be able to get.

 

[r bose]

Love my 1/11 twist stainless Kreiger. Great barrel and handles just about any weight bullet. That was Hook's advice about 4 years ago when he rebarreled it. I shoot 125's offhand and sitting rapids. 155's and 175's also depending on distance. Not sure about what reamer or throat length but I certainly wouldn't want to put myself in a position where I couldn't shoot light bullets during a rapid fire stage because if excessive jump.

 

[stool]

i hate to be the nay sayer as i fell in love with the m14 around 1990.....
but i have been there and done that...
an armalite AR10(T) 24" out shot the full blown m14 right out of the box.
trying for 1200 yds with a 22" bbl will be tough to say the least.

if it is a fun trip fine, but if it is a end results endevor...skip the m14 and go with an ar10 .....

cheaper, better results, less maintenence, faster quicker bbl changes.

reamer should just fit(throat) the 185 at 2.80...yhat gives you about .030 to play with in mag length.

 

[Mr. Ten-X]

11 twist Krieger...possibly a 10 twist. Obermeyer chamber would do just fine.

For the heavies, witness-mark your gas plugs when torqued correctly. Drill a .025" hole through the end of the plug you intend to shoot heavies with as it will save your op-rod. May even have to increase that dia slightly. Go no slower burn rate than something like IMR4064 with the big bullets and that modified gas plug. Shot one set up like that for a few years using 180VLD's and it was a hammer.

 

[tonyben]

I'm a little clueless when it comes to freebore and chamber reamers. I've heard about the Obermeyers being good reamers. I currently load 168's with 4064 or 4895 and get MV's of about 2600 FPS. If I can't get the rounds in the magazine for long range, that's okay with me if I need to single feed the larger bullets.

Thanks again for the advice.

Tony.

 

[XTR]

I wasn't going to go there but since stool put it out there I'll toss a log on the fire he started.

I've watched a number of guys shoot M1As at 1000 yards. It's pure masochism. That rifle was never designed to shoot past 600 yards. I know it's done, but holy hardships batman.

It's your time and money, and I certainly don't believe that my opinion is the only correct one, but if I were building an M1a/M14 I'd build it with the intention of keeping it for 600 yards in and get something else for the long range game. The platform is just not the best choice for long range

 

[Minesweeper3433]

Sage chassis is NOT compatible with heavy contour barrel. The heavy contour barrels take a special op-rod guide and the sage chassis op-rod guide does not fit on the heavy contour. If you plan on using the chassis in the future keep this in mind when ordering the barrel.

 

[tonyben]

SAGE came out with a heavy barrel model...

ustacticalsupply.com/sageinternationalm14ebrstock-2.aspx

I understand that I can build a long range rifle on another platform for much less. In fact, I have a 1980's era long action Savage that I'm going to do just that on. It's currently a 30-06 but will be rebarreled (by me) in 300WM.

But I'm a die-hard M14 fan. It's just captivated me. I got so involved in the platform that I started doing instructional videos that I posted on youtube (tonyben3). By the end of the month, I'll have a 3rd M14 type rifle. I have my first LRB which is a service-rifle match ready with all GI parts or better that I bedded myslef, I'll have an M1A at the end of the month that I had to sell earlier this year (I'm buying it back). It's a SAI with all standard M14 non-match parts and now I'll have a modern-day M14 variant; heavy as a sumbish...but stupid accurate for a battle rifle with the best scope mounting system ever designed for the platform.

Tony.

 

[Minesweeper3433]

Thanks for the web link on the new model stock. Got to say I wish that was available when I built mine.

 

[Rtheurer]

A National Match M14 won the NRA Long Range Service Rifle Championships again this last year (2013). Since the shooter is a team mate, I can tell yo uits not an easy venture at all. That gun flat out shoots however. (I shot it at Camp Bullis in 2009.)
We had a discussion after one of the team Matches and he had to actually guess where his next bullet was going to impact until it had about 5 rounds on it and the barrel got hot. Not an easy task since in a shoot off you only get 3 sighting shots. It took some time to figure out how it wanted to act as he shot it.

With that being said I would rather slam my manhood in a car door than shoot a Service Rifle at 1000 yards...

They can still get it done over the AR 10 and AR 15's Just takes a whole lot of work.

RussT

 

[tonyben]

A National Match M14 won the NRA Long Range Service Rifle Championships again this last year (2013). Since the shooter is a team mate, I can tell yo uits not an easy venture at all. That gun flat out shoots however. (I shot it at Camp Bullis in 2009.)
We had a discussion after one of the team Matches and he had to actually guess where his next bullet was going to impact until it had about 5 rounds on it and the barrel got hot. Not an easy task since in a shoot off you only get 3 sighting shots. It took some time to figure out how it wanted to act as he shot it.

With that being said I would rather slam my manhood in a car door than shoot a Service Rifle at 1000 yards...

They can still get it done over the AR 10 and AR 15's Just takes a whole lot of work.

RussT

Thanks! Was it Nez?

Tony.

 

[XTR]

With that being said I would rather slam my manhood in a car door than shoot a Service Rifle at 1000 yards...


RussT

I may put that in my sig tag LMAO

 

[stool]

THAT SIR IS A DREAM, AND A DAMNED EXPENSIVE ONE AT THAT.

high power is a single discipline that has no relationship to real life shooting.
(you do not get single load, longer than mag length ammo in the field, no hard back shooting "jacket", no massive shooting glove.)

i do not beleive ar-10's are "issue" rifles for high power competition...

They can still get it done over the AR 10 and AR 15's Just takes a whole lot of work.
RussT

 

[tonyben]

Now now... No need to get into platform wars here. Bottom line is that it's the nut behind the stock that makes the difference. Again, we know there are more economical platforms that can yield the same, and sometimes better results. Guys that decide to use M14's in this manner are just a different breed; no better or worse than the black rifle or bolt-gun crowd.

We know what we are spending our money on and it appeals to us. It takes a good amount of craftsmanship to make this rifle do what we want to and for some reason, we just like it. There's something to be said for a rifle that was designed off a WWII era rifle which has been in service (albeit limited) for 57 years and is still being used as a DMR rifle.

Again, I have come to the limit of my knowledge in regards to twist rates and chambers which is why I came here to the accurate shooter forum to get questions answered.

Thanks again for all that have chimed in. I respect your views, opinions and experiences.

Tony.

 

[stool]

dang..i thought you were talking about the ar10 for a sec....
introduced 1956..issued 1958......still used today...
really had me going...

There's something to be said for a rifle that was designed off a WWII era rifle which has been in service (albeit limited) for 57 years and is still being used as a DMR rifle.
Thanks again for all that have chimed in. I respect your views, opinions and experiences.

Tony.

 

[tonyben]

dang..i thought you were talking about the ar10 for a sec....
introduced 1956..issued 1958......still used today...
really had me going...

There's something to be said for a rifle that was designed off a WWII era rifle which has been in service (albeit limited) for 57 years and is still being used as a DMR rifle.
Thanks again for all that have chimed in. I respect your views, opinions and experiences.

Tony.

Wow, that didn't take long. It appears I found the forum douchebag. Reading your other posts, it's evident you don't play well with others. Yes, I get it; you think the AR platform is superior. No, you don't think the 308 is an acceptable 1000yd capable cartridge. I didn't ask people's opinions about platforms or 308 capabilities, so let's stay on topic. Better yet, just move along... Tool.

Tony.

 

[Rtheurer]

[/quote]

Thanks! Was it Nez?

Tony.
[/quote]

Sorry but no. even though our good Mr. Nez is a fine shot with his M14 and a Retired Air Force Veteran he is not on any of the Major Military teams. It was Captain Freeman.