Hammer Forged Barrel - Pros and Cons?

[Raythemanroe]

I watched a guy shoot ten x's in a row with a old recurve bow, yet while knowing that bow can shoot that good I don't want one! I guess I like to make it easier on my self

 

[Phil3]

Phil3, Where is the proof? I see how there made and see how they can be made to compare with good barrels. I see people getting fair results with them. please don't use Europe for an example, How many cut barrel company's do they have? I want leader board examples or record breaking results not a bunch of hype and opinion!

Ray,

Where is the proof that HF barrels are inferior, superior, equivalent, or whatever to any other kind of barrel making technology? There isn't any that I can find. Hence my support for supporting such a test if it could be done in a quantifiable scientifically valid setting. That would take r considerable resources and expertise few of us, if any have. I never used Europe as an example to support any particular position, so I ask that you don't request I stop doing something that I never did. You are fixated on leader board examples as proof positive that HF barrels are inferior. There ARE possible other reasons why HF barrels are not in the winner's circle, which have been cited, but at this point, through your 15 posts, it is clear there is no interest in exploring more about the HF technology and fine accuracy. Continued put-downs of things you don't like, through unsupported opinion, hype, and yelling (18 exclamation points so far), do little to further your cause.

Phil

 

[Phil3]

People far more expert and which are deeply immersed in barrel making are gonna be a little bias don't you think?

Scientists, metallurgists, etc., no, they are not likely to be biased, or their entire reputation and career is over. Barrel makers will switch a new technology if it results in a better product and makes financial sense.

You argue the fact that HF barrel manufactures don't have the financial gain to try to compete with custom barrel makers correct?

I suspect that is the case, given the cost of equipment, barrel prices, and difficulty in changing the culture of accuracy shooters.

HF barrels can possibly turn out great barrels and cut barrel manufactures can possibly turn out bad ones..The majority of custom barrels are awesome and better then most shooters not so much for HF barrels!

I have tried, repeatedly, to explain this, but it is not getting through. If I was a HF barrel maker and I discovered a way to make super accurate niche barrels that easily out performed the best cut-rifled barrels available, I still wouldn't set up shop, unless I was certain I could make enough to pay for my big equipment expense, labor, etc, within a reasonable period of time (5 years). If there are not enough customers, then it is business suicide to try this, and there will be none of these super accurate barrels in existence except in a lab.

I worked at a biotech company. If we discovered a cure for cancer and it cost $1M per person, what do you do? Produce it? Why? Who is going to buy it? A handful of people and that is just not enough to support the costs. Simple business 101.

I think our debate has run its useful course.

Phil

 

[LHSmith]

My Howa 223 action/barrel has a hammer forged barrel. I read some place that BenchRest shooters wouldn't touch these due to perceived stresses from the hammer forging that could never be adequately relieved. True? Are there any inherent pros or cons to a barrel made through hammer forging?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCMzyNHkjpk - Interesting video on the process.

Phil

This is your original question.......several veteran Benchrest (Capital B)competitors who shoot registered matches have pretty well explained it's all about barrel stress and it's huge negative when it comes to ULTIMATE PRECISION....stresses NOT perceived....they are REAL and HF wins the contest with the least probability it will be stress-free.
I seem to have lost the point to this thread after reading your last post.....you were for HF bbls. before you were against them? Sometimes one must step back from the keyboard and go out and garner actual experience to gain insight into what it takes to master this precision shooting addiction.

 

[Phil3]

This is your original question.......several veteran Benchrest (Capital B)competitors who shoot registered matches have pretty well explained it's all about barrel stress and it's huge negative when it comes to ULTIMATE PRECISION....stresses NOT perceived....they are REAL and HF wins the contest with the least probability it will be stress-free.

I know. Curious how one ascertains the level of stress after a stress relieving process has taken place, for any kind of rifling forming. Ideally, we want the steel completely relaxed I think, but how is it known if this state is fully achieved?

I seem to have lost the point to this thread after reading your last post.....you were for HF bbls. before you were against them?

Nowhere have I been "for" or "against" HF barrels. I was just asking for information on pros and cons, factual info preferably, and challenged it where appropriate to gain more info and to see if a position withstands scrutiny.

Sometimes one must step back from the keyboard and go out and garner actual experience to gain insight into what it takes to master this precision shooting addiction.

Of course. But, gaining info from experienced others is wise is it not? The point of the forum here I think..., along with time on the range.

Phil

 

[LHSmith]

Non-starter (def): An idea, proposal, or candidate with no chance of being accepted or successful.

 

[LHSmith]

This is your original question.......several veteran Benchrest (Capital B)competitors who shoot registered matches have pretty well explained it's all about barrel stress and it's huge negative when it comes to ULTIMATE PRECISION....stresses NOT perceived....they are REAL and HF wins the contest with the least probability it will be stress-free.

I know. Curious how one ascertains the level of stress after a stress relieving process has taken place, for any kind of rifling forming. Ideally, we want the steel completely relaxed I think, but how is it known if this state is fully achieved?

I seem to have lost the point to this thread after reading your last post.....you were for HF bbls. before you were against them?

Nowhere have I been "for" or "against" HF barrels. I was just asking for information on pros and cons, factual info preferably, and challenged it where appropriate to gain more info and to see if a position withstands scrutiny.

Sometimes one must step back from the keyboard and go out and garner actual experience to gain insight into what it takes to master this precision shooting addiction.

Of course. But, gaining info from experienced others is wise is it not? The point of the forum here I think..., along with time on the range.

Phil

You can only know by shooting said bbl.
Experienced "others" have responded .....but you seem not to be able to accept their answers.

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Barrel makers will switch a new technology if it results in a better product and makes financial sense.

Finances aren't really the problem. Here's a rough analysis:

To service the debt on a $1M purchase over 20 years is about $7K/mo. A hammer forge can rifle (and chamber, if desired) a barrel every 3 minutes. Even with just 40hr work weeks, that's about 3K barrels per month. The amortized capital cost of rifling each barrel is less than $3.

Now let's say that Krieger decides to switch to hammer forging, but doesn't want to make any more barrels than they do now (i.e., for some reason they have no interest in decreasing their backlog below the current 8-9 month wait!). I don't how many barrels Krieger does make now, but let's say they only work 40hr weeks, and can cut-rifle a barrel every 30 minutes, and rifling is the rate-limiting step (probably true, because rifling machines are in short supply). The hammer forging cost (amortized) at this low production rate is $30/barrel -- roughly 1/10 the price of the blank. And they could do ALL their rifling for the week in just 4 hours.

Even if Krieger had to pass along the whole $30 to their customer, by raising prices ~10%, there would be a line around the block IF -- and only if -- the hammer-forged barrels shoot better than the competition's. In addition, Krieger could offer a lot faster service, which would by itself increase their business (and make more economical use of the hammer forge). And, of course, for the benchrest crowd Krieger could also produce a CHAMBERED blank, which would actually make the barrel less expensive overall for the shooter.

Ergo, hammer forging equipment cost is not likely to be the issue. Nor is it likely that Krieger, Bartlein, Brux, etc. haven't considered hammer forging.

... and difficulty in changing the culture of accuracy shooters.

30 years ago, Hart and Shilen button-rifled barrels dominated benchrest, while cut-rifled barrels were used in highpower/Palma/etc. Times change, though. Shooters will FLOCK to any equipment that is adopted by the winners -- as evidenced by the prevalence of cut-rifled barrels in the benchrest game now. For additional evidence, look at the overnight adoption (and long reign) of the 6PPC in point blank BR, for example. [That may change with the new rules in Sporter -- we'll see how the .22s do now that they can be shot in all the short-range BR classes.]

 

[butchlambert]

Toby,
I single finger typed a response and it disappeared.I'll try again. Shooters do not care how barrels are made, just how they shoot.
A million dollar machine will require another million dollar land and building purchase. You will need to hire employees, train them, buy materials, and of course a computer controlled stress relieving furnace. You will need a great marketing dept. and funds to operate in the red for an extended time. When you see them in the winner's equip. list you will start seeing sales
I will not get into whether they are good or not, but it will take a lot of time and a huge capital investment on a HOPE.

 

[Phil3]

To service the debt on a $1M purchase over 20 years is about $7K/mo. A hammer forge can rifle (and chamber, if desired) a barrel every 3 minutes. Even with just 40hr work weeks, that's about 3K barrels per month. The amortized capital cost of rifling each barrel is less than $3.

Your figures are too pessimistic. Using your values, the amortized cost of rifling each barrel would be less than $2.

Now let's say that Krieger decides to switch to hammer forging, but doesn't want to make any more barrels than they do now (i.e., for some reason they have no interest in decreasing their backlog below the current 8-9 month wait!). I don't how many barrels Krieger does make now, but let's say they only work 40hr weeks, and can cut-rifle a barrel every 30 minutes, and rifling is the rate-limiting step (probably true, because rifling machines are in short supply). The hammer forging cost (amortized) at this low production rate is $30/barrel -- roughly 1/10 the price of the blank. And they could do ALL their rifling for the week in just 4 hours.

About right. They could do all their rifling for the year in just over 5 weeks.

Even if Krieger had to pass along the whole $30 to their customer, by raising prices ~10%, there would be a line around the block IF -- and only if -- the hammer-forged barrels shoot better than the competition's. In addition, Krieger could offer a lot faster service, which would by itself increase their business (and make more economical use of the hammer forge). And, of course, for the benchrest crowd Krieger could also produce a CHAMBERED blank, which would actually make the barrel less expensive overall for the shooter.

This assumes a lot on the behavior of shooters. Only John Krieger himself could really speak to the reasons he does makes barrels the way he does.

Ergo, hammer forging equipment cost is not likely to be the issue. Nor is it likely that Krieger, Bartlein, Brux, etc. haven't considered hammer forging.

"...As a rule of thumb, machinery or other tools should pay for themselves within two to three years, according to Brian J. Hogan, editor of Manufacturing Engineering magazine...". Your debt for equipment of 20 years is very long. Using your figures, the interest rate is 5.7%, which results in the $1M in equipment costing, with interest, $1,680,000. Add in all the other costs that Butch mentioned and I am confident the financial picture does not look as good. Barrel makers may have all kinds of reasons not to make a barrel some other kind of way, and it would be interesting to hear what the decision makers comment on the topic.

Phil

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

Hi Butch. I don't dispute that there is a lot of risk involved in giving hammer forging a try for benchrest barrels, and the costs are substantial. Substantial but not unachievable, if someone were sufficiently curious and motivated. The low(er) cost route would be to partner with a big hammer forging operation and just front the cost of the mandrel and the lapping/honing required to produce a really smooth drilled blank.

It's probably already been tried (maybe by the late Mike Walker), anyway.

Earlier in this thread there was a claim that HF barrels don't have to be stress relieved, but even if they do, that's standard for button-rifled barrels already, so it must be affordable even to fairly small barrel-making operations.

If someone had a hankering to spend big money on tooling just to experiment, I'd encourage them to make bullet jackets, not barrels!

 

[Toby Bradshaw]

"...As a rule of thumb, machinery or other tools should pay for themselves within two to three years, according to Brian J. Hogan, editor of Manufacturing Engineering magazine...".

How old do you think the rifling machines are that are used by the custom makers? Hint: many decades.

 

[Phil3]

I know that many are very old Pratt & Whitney cut-rifling machines. But, how old they are doesn't matter...how long the barrel maker has had them in use and how long they are taking to pay for them at what interest rate does.

Anyway, I really just wanted to know the pros and cons of a hammer forged barrel, and after pulling out the good info here along with additional research on my own, I know a lot more than I did when I first started the thread.

I expect nothing extraordinary out of my Howa HF 223, but would love to put a bore scope down it just to see what it looks like before I shoot it. It would be interesting to see how that looked compared to my Krieger barrel, but that barrel has seen some use, so not really a fair comparison. But, until I can lay my hands on a bore scope, none of this is happening anyway.

Phil

 

[Raythemanroe]

If the money was there nobody would do it. You would first need to prove there superior or as good! Why don't you call a couple companies and ask them how many barrels they produce each year and follow that up with some questions about HF and get back to us? Instead of telling folks they don't really understand why they replaced there HF barrel on there rifle! You don't need a degree Phil3 to figure results are proof enough! The proof is in the pudding!

 

[Ing. Michael W. Mayerl]

I don`t know a source in the US to get hammer forged barrel blanks but if anyone want to test them, he can contact me.
I suggest to make a centralized order because shipping costs to the US are very high.
Best are carbon steel blanks, stress relieved, in caliber:

223 / 9"
243/10"
6,5mm (6,45mm land diameter) / 7,8"
7mm / 8,7"
308 / 12"
338 / 10" twist

I use them for my custom rifles and they are proven.

It would be realy very interessting if some here will make barrels and compare them to US custom barrels.

 

[Raythemanroe]

That would be the only honest way!

 

[Phil3]

If the money was there nobody would do it. You would first need to prove there superior or as good! Why don't you call a couple companies and ask them how many barrels they produce each year and follow that up with some questions about HF and get back to us? Instead of telling folks they don't really understand why they replaced there HF barrel on there rifle! You don't need a degree Phil3 to figure results are proof enough! The proof is in the pudding!

It's official. Some people just can't be communicated with and I'm done wasting my time trying.

Phil

 

[Ackman]

I associate the leader boards of most shooting sports with quality products......I guess unless you guy's can show me a majority of events in the precision shooting world (bench rest) are being won by HF barrels I guess I will have to go through life drinking my home made juice!

You seem to think that shooting benchrest makes you hot sh#t/know everything. What you don't get is that hardly anyone gives a crap about benchrest. It's a tiny percentage of the shooting world.

 

[Ackman]

If the money was there nobody would do it. You would first need to prove there superior or as good! Why don't you call a couple companies and ask them how many barrels they produce each year and follow that up with some questions about HF and get back to us? Instead of telling folks they don't really understand why they replaced there HF barrel on there rifle! You don't need a degree Phil3 to figure results are proof enough! The proof is in the pudding!

During one conversation with a barrelmaker I was told that hammerforging equipment is hugely expensive. And that Remington barrels are made by another company which does have the equipment.

 

[LHSmith]

You seem to think that shooting benchrest makes you hot sh#t/know everything. What you don't get is that hardly anyone gives a crap about benchrest. It's a tiny percentage of the shooting world.

Apparently the OP cares what Benchresters think.......he prefaced the post with reference to Benchrest. Might be a small percentage.....but there's a lot of people making their living off of the sport. This is AccurateShooter.com, I would say a good portion of the members here participate in BR or want the opinion of those in BR. What other shooting sport has REGISTERED COMPETITION that requires that level of precision to win......no keyboard group claims from selected targets shot in selected conditions....only genuine verifiable results shooting in whatever conditions are presented you, subjected to the muzzle blasts from adjacent benches, with-in a regulated time, many-times shooting at an unfamiliar range, and in multiple yardage tournaments having to rotate to different benches ......just to keep it fair.