butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
+1 LH
Hammer Forged Barrel - Pros and Cons?
- Thread starter Phil3
- Start date
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
+2, can't see any better way to find end results other then maybe a tunnel and rail gun!
BigDMT
I find it very funny when people bad mouth competition shooting.
Absolutely EVERYTHING that has anything to do with the high level of accuracy we see in all of today's rifles, factory or custom, at one point came from a competition shooter who was pushing the envelope of normality in an attempt to win.
So if you want to talk trash about competition shooters, you are bad mouthing all the folks in history that came up with all the ideas that make your own rifles accurate.
And of all places to talk trash about competition shooters, accurateshooter.com? REALLY? I think "Ackman" just dug a deep hole on this forum that he will never climb out of.
Absolutely EVERYTHING that has anything to do with the high level of accuracy we see in all of today's rifles, factory or custom, at one point came from a competition shooter who was pushing the envelope of normality in an attempt to win.
So if you want to talk trash about competition shooters, you are bad mouthing all the folks in history that came up with all the ideas that make your own rifles accurate.
And of all places to talk trash about competition shooters, accurateshooter.com? REALLY? I think "Ackman" just dug a deep hole on this forum that he will never climb out of.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
Ackman,
Remington does not make all there barrels and not all of them are HF barrels. To follow up on your bench rest remark: You may not appreciate this but pretty much everything you enjoy about accuracy can be related to bench rest precision shooters!
Remington does not make all there barrels and not all of them are HF barrels. To follow up on your bench rest remark: You may not appreciate this but pretty much everything you enjoy about accuracy can be related to bench rest precision shooters!
Herr Meyerl seems to be getting hammered pretty good himself here, which is unfortunate because I haven't seen a thing he's said that wasn't quite correct. Not the case with some of the other comments on this thread. There are plenty of military weapons that use the hammer forging process in their barrels, and some of the most reputable names in the industry who produce and use them. Nothing new here, and they've been around for quite a time. And to the contrary, there HAS been a US manufacturer who produced match-winning competitive barrels via hammer forging; Winchester. I've used a number of their 26" heavy barrels in 308 Win over the years myself, and seen a great many others in use as well. Never saw one that wasn't an absolute tack-driver. These were HP and LR guns, not BR rifles, so that's the requisite level of accuracy that I'm speaking of here. They were not only accurate in that venue, but were completely capable of going toe-to-toe with the best of the custom barrels on the market at that time, at least for that type of competition.
The point is, as Michael has repeatedly explained, the hammer forging process is a very fast, efficient and cost effective way to produce a large quantity of barrels. That said, the quality of those barrels may be very high, or not so great, just as with any other system of manufacturing. The quality of the materials going in, the state of precision (and maintenance) in the production machinery itself, and the quality of the workmen's skills being applied all determine whether you're going to get good, or bad barrels via this method. Just like any other mood of production.
Given the cost breakdowns here, I would expect to see the HF process picked up by more of our large-scale manufacturers (and we already are) if they can justify the initial expenses to get into this field. Good, bad or indifferent, the market will decide what method comes out on top. Personally, I prefer cut rifling for my own uses, but have no qualms about using buttoned barrels if they're from a good maker. I also still have one rifle that wears one of the original Winchester Ultra Match HF barrels, and it's still a great shooter.
As for Herr Meyerl and his opinions, I, for one, appreciate his input.
The point is, as Michael has repeatedly explained, the hammer forging process is a very fast, efficient and cost effective way to produce a large quantity of barrels. That said, the quality of those barrels may be very high, or not so great, just as with any other system of manufacturing. The quality of the materials going in, the state of precision (and maintenance) in the production machinery itself, and the quality of the workmen's skills being applied all determine whether you're going to get good, or bad barrels via this method. Just like any other mood of production.
Given the cost breakdowns here, I would expect to see the HF process picked up by more of our large-scale manufacturers (and we already are) if they can justify the initial expenses to get into this field. Good, bad or indifferent, the market will decide what method comes out on top. Personally, I prefer cut rifling for my own uses, but have no qualms about using buttoned barrels if they're from a good maker. I also still have one rifle that wears one of the original Winchester Ultra Match HF barrels, and it's still a great shooter.
As for Herr Meyerl and his opinions, I, for one, appreciate his input.
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
Perhaps I had my BR blinders on again.
I'm not trying to bash on hammer forged barrels here. I'm looking for "quality". I define quality as "fit for its intended use".
In that vein, I'll labor on to try to make my point clear.
I shoot score benchrest. 13.5 lb rifles. 30 Major, 30 BR and soon to be a 220 Beggs (in UBR).
I need a heavy varmint profile barrel, preferably a max heavy varmint profile. Where is there a hammer forged max heavy varmint blank that I can use?
We all know that the short, fat 30s shoot 17-19 twist. The 220 Beggs has a 14 twist. Where are there 17-19 twist hammer forged blanks?
I know from the vast body of experience out there what velocities to shoot and starting seating depths for cut rifled and button rifled barrels so that I don't wear the barrel out learning what it likes. How do I approach the hammer forged barrel?
I know from that same body of experience how tune changes as the temperature increases. Will a hammer forged barrel be the same?
My gunsmith is an artist chambering a barrel in Crucible 416R. Would a hammer forged blank machine the same?
I'm not trying to bash on hammer forged barrels here. I'm looking for "quality". I define quality as "fit for its intended use".
In that vein, I'll labor on to try to make my point clear.
I shoot score benchrest. 13.5 lb rifles. 30 Major, 30 BR and soon to be a 220 Beggs (in UBR).
I need a heavy varmint profile barrel, preferably a max heavy varmint profile. Where is there a hammer forged max heavy varmint blank that I can use?
We all know that the short, fat 30s shoot 17-19 twist. The 220 Beggs has a 14 twist. Where are there 17-19 twist hammer forged blanks?
I know from the vast body of experience out there what velocities to shoot and starting seating depths for cut rifled and button rifled barrels so that I don't wear the barrel out learning what it likes. How do I approach the hammer forged barrel?
I know from that same body of experience how tune changes as the temperature increases. Will a hammer forged barrel be the same?
My gunsmith is an artist chambering a barrel in Crucible 416R. Would a hammer forged blank machine the same?
GSPV said:
20" hammer forged are available from the 30 Carbine
7,62 / 7,82mm
4 groove
14" are also available but with lower groove land dimensions
7,59 / 7,79mm
4 groove
For 6mm PPC / 14" twist I don`t now any company in europe that has a mandrel so it must be custom made.
+1 GSPV
Again, the thread starts with reference to "Benchrest", not F-class, not high-power......."Benchrest" as in firing from a fixed bench. I believe most responses were made with reference to "Benchrest".....the overwhelming majority of posters did not take exception to Ing. Mayerl's input.
A few "Benchrest" competitors took the time to give their input.....which was pretty well unanimous....yes, we don't even consider using them in "Benchrest" because of their historical stress issues.
Again, the thread starts with reference to "Benchrest", not F-class, not high-power......."Benchrest" as in firing from a fixed bench. I believe most responses were made with reference to "Benchrest".....the overwhelming majority of posters did not take exception to Ing. Mayerl's input.
A few "Benchrest" competitors took the time to give their input.....which was pretty well unanimous....yes, we don't even consider using them in "Benchrest" because of their historical stress issues.
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
BigDMT said:I find it very funny when people bad mouth competition shooting.
Absolutely EVERYTHING that has anything to do with the high level of accuracy we see in all of today's rifles, factory or custom, at one point came from a competition shooter who was pushing the envelope of normality in an attempt to win.
So if you want to talk trash about competition shooters, you are bad mouthing all the folks in history that came up with all the ideas that make your own rifles accurate.
And of all places to talk trash about competition shooters, accurateshooter.com? REALLY? I think "Ackman" just dug a deep hole on this forum that he will never climb out of.
Nothing I've said is untrue. You're being a drama queen.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
"we get much better results from button rifled barrels then hammer forged"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrmWN0igJY0
Woody Woodhull " you can make equally good barrels with any of these methods"! " Hammer forged barrels are the hardest with the highest failure rate"
Jochen Anschutz "We tried Hammer Forged barrels we get much better results from button rifled barrels then hammer forged"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrmWN0igJY0
Woody Woodhull " you can make equally good barrels with any of these methods"! " Hammer forged barrels are the hardest with the highest failure rate"
Jochen Anschutz "We tried Hammer Forged barrels we get much better results from button rifled barrels then hammer forged"
GSPV
A failure to plan is a plan for failure.
Ing. Michael W. Mayerl said:
Below is an excerpt from the IBS rule book. Experience has shown that a competitive 30 BR will be close to 13.5 lbs and the barrel will be somewhere around 23 inches in order to balance correctly.
2) Heavy Varmint Rifle
Any rifle having a safe manually operated firing mechanism, weighing not more than 13 1/2 pounds inclusive of sight, with a stock having a flat or convex forearm and total stock width not more than 3", having a toe formed by a straight line drawn from the toe of a substantially vertical butt with a 13 1/4 inch pull starting at a point at least 4 inches below the axis of the bore and extending forward to the centerline of the barrel at a point no more than 18 inches forward of the bolt face a barrel not less than 18 inches long, a diameter at and not more than 5 inches ahead of the bolt face of not more than 1.250 inches and a diameter at any point between the muzzle and 5 inches in front of the bolt face not greater than would be defined by a straight taper between such point 5 inches in front of the bolt face at 1.250 inches diameter and the muzzle at .9 inch diameter at 29 inches. The barrel may be attached to the receiver, bedding blocks or sleeve or combination thereof for a distance of no more than four (4) inches, measured from the face of the bolt. The overall length of the receiver, bedding block or sleeve or combination thereof not to exceed 14". (Maximum dimensions shall not include normal scope blocks or sight bases.) Epoxy or equivalent plastic bedding compound without parting compound, of the bottom 180 degree of any portion of the barreled action on Varmint class rifles is permitted. Remington 40XB stocks, as produced, may be used without alteration, provided there is no interaction between fore-end and sand bag that would constitute a guiding means. Electric triggers are allowed. No additions or attachments shall be added to the barrel, with the exception of a scope shade (such as those that have been used in competition over the history of the IBS), which are attached to the barrel by the means of tape, Velcro, or glue, or a tuner as described in a) except as below.
BigDMT
Ackman said:BigDMT said:I find it very funny when people bad mouth competition shooting.
Absolutely EVERYTHING that has anything to do with the high level of accuracy we see in all of today's rifles, factory or custom, at one point came from a competition shooter who was pushing the envelope of normality in an attempt to win.
So if you want to talk trash about competition shooters, you are bad mouthing all the folks in history that came up with all the ideas that make your own rifles accurate.
And of all places to talk trash about competition shooters, accurateshooter.com? REALLY? I think "Ackman" just dug a deep hole on this forum that he will never climb out of.
Nothing I've said is untrue. You're being a drama queen.
Keep digging buddy, you're almost to the bottom. Nice trading feedback too by the way. :
Definitely correlates with your posts here.BigDMT
Back to the subject; Below is a YouTube web link very informative video from the President and CEO of Lothar Walther barrels. He describes all the different types of barrel manufacturing and the qualities they can produce. He goes into some detail on the hammer forging process as well. Basically he states that all types of manufacturing can produce very accurate barrels, but some methods, like hammer forging, are much more complicated and take much more attention to detail to produce an accurate barrel. Hopefully this will settle some of the debate here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrmWN0igJY0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrmWN0igJY0
I might be one of the ones who mentioned the word" Benchrest rifle" in my earlier post, which probably did not help with the conversation .
When I mentioned screwing a HF barrel on a BR rig, it was not for competition as such but more for testing the potential accuracy of HF barrels. To my eyes a br platform could be one of the ways of testing a barrel accuracy. Now I am not a Boyer or hall of fame shooter but I can hold my 1/4 of minute angle or better when conditions are appropriate.
As mentioned on a later post, testing the barrel in a type of ransom rest and in a tunnel would be unbeatable, but I do not know of any such facilities around here in NZ!
Sure I would not bet money for a HF barrel to win a BR national(or even regional) competition, but a lot of these barrels could hold up to custom barrels for varmint purposes.
My Scottish uncle has a varmint rifle built on a Mauser action, with a Delcourt HF barrel ( no longer made) . It is in 22-250 with a 1.250" straight profil. That barrel shoots factory federal ammunition into tiny clovers at 110 m . And either with a 55 gr game king load or 55gr hp load, the point of impact is the same. This rifle is used for fox shooting at night. It is definitely not a BR rifle but is doing the job as well as any custom rifle built with modern components and technics that would be destined for the same job.
You could buy those barrels at the time (late 70's)for two thirds to half the price of a custom US barrel.
The point I am trying to make is that for price Vs accuracy Vs barrel life, these barrels could be what a vast majority are looking for for their varmint rigs. And I totally agree that a benchrest competitor is going to pay much much more to have chance to have a hummer barrel out of a batch of five ( or ten!). and that his chances of getting such barrel are gonna increase with the notoriety of the barrel maker.
ND.
When I mentioned screwing a HF barrel on a BR rig, it was not for competition as such but more for testing the potential accuracy of HF barrels. To my eyes a br platform could be one of the ways of testing a barrel accuracy. Now I am not a Boyer or hall of fame shooter but I can hold my 1/4 of minute angle or better when conditions are appropriate.
As mentioned on a later post, testing the barrel in a type of ransom rest and in a tunnel would be unbeatable, but I do not know of any such facilities around here in NZ!
Sure I would not bet money for a HF barrel to win a BR national(or even regional) competition, but a lot of these barrels could hold up to custom barrels for varmint purposes.
My Scottish uncle has a varmint rifle built on a Mauser action, with a Delcourt HF barrel ( no longer made) . It is in 22-250 with a 1.250" straight profil. That barrel shoots factory federal ammunition into tiny clovers at 110 m . And either with a 55 gr game king load or 55gr hp load, the point of impact is the same. This rifle is used for fox shooting at night. It is definitely not a BR rifle but is doing the job as well as any custom rifle built with modern components and technics that would be destined for the same job.
You could buy those barrels at the time (late 70's)for two thirds to half the price of a custom US barrel.
The point I am trying to make is that for price Vs accuracy Vs barrel life, these barrels could be what a vast majority are looking for for their varmint rigs. And I totally agree that a benchrest competitor is going to pay much much more to have chance to have a hummer barrel out of a batch of five ( or ten!). and that his chances of getting such barrel are gonna increase with the notoriety of the barrel maker.
ND.
I can't even begin to imagine what a PITA it would be to try to hammer forge barrels for the BR crowd, especially if you were forging the chamber too. "14 twist is no good. I need 14 1/2 twist." "1 1/2 degree throats don't shoot well. I need a 1 1/4 degree throat." ".3080" groove diameter is unacceptable. I need .3075". "Can you make that a 4 groove instead of 6?" "Can you optimize that for the BIB 67?"
A HF barrel maker would have to spend the first 3 hours of every work day saying "No. No. No. No."
A HF barrel maker would have to spend the first 3 hours of every work day saying "No. No. No. No."
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
ND,
I've always wondered what this means. I have heard it a lot over the last 30-35yrs.
That barrel shoots factory federal ammunition into tiny clovers at 110 m .
Now is that a 3 leaf clover or a 4 leaf clover? ;D
I've always wondered what this means. I have heard it a lot over the last 30-35yrs.
That barrel shoots factory federal ammunition into tiny clovers at 110 m .
Now is that a 3 leaf clover or a 4 leaf clover? ;D
[br]Beau said:
The same applies to button rifled barrels for twist and bore dimensions. It's just that buttons are a lot cheaper than mandrels.
Ackman
Gold $$ Contributor
BigDMT said:And of all places to talk trash about competition shooters, accurateshooter.com? REALLY? I think "Ackman" just dug a deep hole on this forum that he will never climb out of.
Nothing I've said is untrue. You're being a drama queen.
[/quote]
Keep digging buddy, you're almost to the bottom. Nice trading feedback too by the way. :
Definitely correlates with your posts here. [/quote]
BigD......Drama queen.....and I'm not your buddy.
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