Got brass troubles. Cause ? Video posted

[243winxb]

If I was to make a cast with cero safe would we learn much from that ?

May show a flaw in the chamber? But didn't you look with a bore scope?

I would buy-- Field Gauge: Field Gauges correspond to the maximum safe headspace dimension. If a rifle will chamber a field gauge, it should be inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith prior to use.

 

[DLT]

May show a flaw in the chamber? But didn't you look with a bore scope?

I would buy-- Field Gauge: Field Gauges correspond to the maximum safe headspace dimension. If a rifle will chamber a field gauge, it should be inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith prior to use.

If it was too fat. No way a bore scope would show that. I have never heard of a field gauge. I’ll look into one. Your saying a good chamber should not chamber one ?

 

[DLT]

If it was too fat. No way a bore scope would show that. I have never heard of a field gauge. I’ll look into one. Your saying a good chamber should not chamber one ?

Is a field gauge bigger than a no go ? I don’t know everything but good money says no way in the world it will chamber in my rifle. A no go gauge certainly will not. Using a 5/16 bushing slipped over the neck sitting on the shoulder measuring 3 random of each.

Fired cases: 2.348
2.350
2.348

New cases: 2.343
2.344
2.344

 

[243winxb]

Where is line is occurring it’s .920 up from the bottom of case head. The area measures .365 diameter. A new unsized unfired piece I got .361 I don’t think chamber is too fat with those numbers ?

Yours not to fat when compared to my factory Savages Axis with old 6 pound trigger.
I checked different lots of LC & Black Hill Match brass. The BHM has been loaded 20 times. Lost some (9 or10?) due to split necks. No annealing till 17 loading.

 

[DLT]

Yours not to fat when compared to my factory Savages Axis with old 6 pound trigger.
I checked different lots of LC & Black Hill Match brass. The BHM has been loaded 20 times. Lost some (9 or10?) due to split necks. No annealing till 17 loading.

It’s weird weird. I thought I was missing something obvious. What does some of you guys fired cases measure that has the hornady tool ?

 

[LHSmith]

Your chamber is what it is. Use a FL die that more closely matches your chamber so you won't be overworking the brass which is what creates the weak spots leading to separation. Fired brass sent to Whidden will solve your problem if you want brass to last as long as possible.

 

[DLT]

Your chamber is what it is. Use a FL die that more closely matches your chamber so you won't be overworking the brass which is what creates the weak spots leading to separation. Fired brass sent to Whidden will solve your problem if you want brass to last as long as possible.

I have a hornady die I started with, It’s real snug sizing as far as it necking the case down and trying to pull expander back through. I also have a rcbs so I tried it it gave much more easier sizing going up into the die and coming back out. It’s very little effort to size this brass with it. I would say it’s not working it much at all just going off of feel. I have sized cases going from one gun to the next in other calibers with factory chambers that are apparently big and it’s a great deal harder to size those cases. How or where could I measure sized vs unsized other than the headspace ?

 

[dantiff2]

I have a hornady die I started with, It’s real snug sizing as far as it necking the case down and trying to pull expander back through. I also have a rcbs so I tried it it gave much more easier sizing going up into the die and coming back out. It’s very little effort to size this brass with it. I would say it’s not working it much at all just going off of feel. I have sized cases going from one gun to the next in other calibers with factory chambers that are apparently big and it’s a great deal harder to size those cases. How or where could I measure sized vs unsized other than the headspace ?

Unfortunately, you can't do much on your own unless you happen to have an optical comparator laying around since the case is a tapered design ; )

 

[JPB4BAMA]

Reply from Starline directly when I asked them if there were any current recalls:

Dan,
We don’t currently have any plans for a recall on 223 brass. I’ve only got one customer that I’m aware of having problems right now, and his chamber appears to be a little larger just behind the shoulder than it is a little farther back. Most likely causing his separations. The Lot’s of 223 are generally between 1.5 million and 4 million cases, so if there was a widespread problem we would have expected to have heard about it by now. It is one of our best selling products and we rarely have any complaints on the 223 Remington, so I’d say you are good to go. We did have a recall a couple of years ago on 5.56, but that was a splitting issue that didn’t affect the 223 Rem.


Regards,
Hunter Pilant

Process Manager

Chief Ballistician

hunter@starlinebrass.com

I have a bag of 100 that I purchased from Midsouth as a potential backup for Lapua or Norma in October. No first I am shooting a 223 Ackley so I must fire form the brass. On the first 5 trial loads I saw the exact same thing at the same place. My fireforming loads are intentionally very light in order to get a little work hardening of the case head prior to working up to my normal load that is in an intermediate pressure range. Those 5 actually failed, not just the bright line but an open crack. I did my due diligence, measured the brass, which was actually a touch longer than Lapua or Norma, checked my headspace and repeated the trial with all three brands. Starline again failed, the others formed perfectly. So with this in hand I contacted Starline in late November asking for any other complaints, or if there might be some issue with my fireforming process, To date I have received no response.

Mine is LOT # 1435.

With respect to the posted video of the sectioned unfired case. The distortion that shows in the case at the same location is clearly an initial thinning of the case wall. As a metallurgist myself, I suspect this is likely in the drawing process and probably related to a die clearance or lube issue, or insufficient intermediate anneal. With it being uniform around the circumference I doubt a chemical metallurgy issue.

 

[dantiff2]

I have a bag of 100 that I purchased from Midsouth as a potential backup for Lapua or Norma in October. No first I am shooting a 223 Ackley so I must fire form the brass. On the first 5 trial loads I saw the exact same thing at the same place. My fireforming loads are intentionally very light in order to get a little work hardening of the case head prior to working up to my normal load that is in an intermediate pressure range. Those 5 actually failed, not just the bright line but an open crack. I did my due diligence, measured the brass, which was actually a touch longer than Lapua or Norma, checked my headspace and repeated the trial with all three brands. Starline again failed, the others formed perfectly. So with this in hand I contacted Starline in late November asking for any other complaints, or if there might be some issue with my fireforming process, To date I have received no response.

Mine is LOT # 1435.

With respect to the posted video of the sectioned unfired case. The distortion that shows in the case at the same location is clearly an initial thinning of the case wall. As a metallurgist myself, I suspect this is likely in the drawing process and probably related to a die clearance or lube issue, or insufficient intermediate anneal. With it being uniform around the circumference I doubt a chemical metallurgy issue.

Contact Hunter Pilant ( Chief Ballistician and Process Manager) at Starline. Be respectful. He's very nice to deal wth: hunter@starlinebrass.com

 

[JFrank]

I find that measuring a case at the base/ body as well as the case shoulder junction provides the information to judge a dies capabilities.

I have a hornady die I started with, It’s real snug sizing as far as it necking the case down and trying to pull expander back through. I also have a rcbs so I tried it it gave much more easier sizing going up into the die and coming back out. It’s very little effort to size this brass with it. I would say it’s not working it much at all just going off of feel. I have sized cases going from one gun to the next in other calibers with factory chambers that are apparently big and it’s a great deal harder to size those cases. How or where could I measure sized vs unsized other than the headspace ?

 

[DLT]

I have a bag of 100 that I purchased from Midsouth as a potential backup for Lapua or Norma in October. No first I am shooting a 223 Ackley so I must fire form the brass. On the first 5 trial loads I saw the exact same thing at the same place. My fireforming loads are intentionally very light in order to get a little work hardening of the case head prior to working up to my normal load that is in an intermediate pressure range. Those 5 actually failed, not just the bright line but an open crack. I did my due diligence, measured the brass, which was actually a touch longer than Lapua or Norma, checked my headspace and repeated the trial with all three brands. Starline again failed, the others formed perfectly. So with this in hand I contacted Starline in late November asking for any other complaints, or if there might be some issue with my fireforming process, To date I have received no response.

Mine is LOT # 1435.

With respect to the posted video of the sectioned unfired case. The distortion that shows in the case at the same location is clearly an initial thinning of the case wall. As a metallurgist myself, I suspect this is likely in the drawing process and probably related to a die clearance or lube issue, or insufficient intermediate anneal. With it being uniform around the circumference I doubt a chemical metallurgy issue.

Good read and thanks for sharing.

 

[LHSmith]

I have a hornady die I started with, It’s real snug sizing as far as it necking the case down and trying to pull expander back through. I also have a rcbs so I tried it it gave much more easier sizing going up into the die and coming back out. It’s very little effort to size this brass with it. I would say it’s not working it much at all just going off of feel. I have sized cases going from one gun to the next in other calibers with factory chambers that are apparently big and it’s a great deal harder to size those cases. How or where could I measure sized vs unsized other than the headspace ?

I would simply measure cases (from the NEW chamber) 1/4" above the extraction groove , then run one case through the RCBS die and another case through the Hornady die to see how much they are sizing the body.

 

[243winxb]

Is rifle a model 12 Single shot? The extractor may be setting the "annealed" shoulder back on chambering? "Wild" guess.

My Axis takes a lot of effort to close the bolt when single loading a round directly into the chamber. Never measured head to datum, before & after chambering.
I now always load from the magazine.

A misfire from a bad CCI 400 primer showed the firing pin strike can set the shoulder back .006" The 2nd strike on same, totaled .013" shoulder set back. This brass will separate, if fired. I didn't.

 

[DLT]

I find that measuring a case at the base/ body as well as the case shoulder junction provides the information to judge a dies capabilities.

Thanks. A sizing die properly setup should not size smaller than a new unfired case correct ? Can you post where on the shoulder you take the measurements ?

 

[JFrank]

Right about here

 

[DLT]

Is rifle a model 12 Single shot? The extractor may be setting the "annealed" shoulder back on chambering? "Wild" guess.

My Axis takes a lot of effort to close the bolt when single loading a round directly into the chamber. Never measured head to datum, before & after chambering.
I now always load from the magazine.

A misfire from a bad CCI 400 primer showed the firing pin strike can set the shoulder back .006" The 2nd strike on same, totaled .013" shoulder set back. This brass will separate, if fired. I didn't.

I can try that when I get home just to see if indeed it could be.

 

[JPB4BAMA]

DLT, you are correct about the change in case wall thickness in that area. I sent a few of the pictures from this thread to Starline and Hunter( Process Manager) replied back to me saying "That is where the first taper on the inside terminates, our 223 brass is super thick at the base, so if it was going to separate that would be the spot!"
Dan

Sorry, but that is a lame reply. No brass should separate on the first firing unless there is something really wrong with the chamber or the brass. For crying out loud LC brass that is fired in standard issue weapons, as well as the M249 SAW with an intentionally "generous" chamber does not crap out on the first firing.
And if that was actually the case this would have been a long standing complaint and Starline would not have been getting the great reviews that they have been getting over the years, especially from those that use it in competition with rather stout loads.
It's an issue, my bet it is one that they now know about and are now in damage control. That seldom works out well for the manufacturers.

 

[DLT]

Ok , going off 4 firing brass vs new unfired and where spj was showing.

Unfired case towards the head is .373 and shoulder is .350

4 times fired Case head .375 shoulder is .357

I’ll need to check some that’s been sized later

 

[JFrank]

Ok , going off 4 firing brass vs new unfired and where spj was showing.

Unfired case towards the head is .373 and shoulder is .350

4 times fired Case head .375 shoulder is .358

A 4x fired case is .375 at the base, what is the resized number in that same location ?
Btw- .008 expansion at the shoulder is ALOT