Getting the ES/SD down on .223s

[Gunracer]

While I have been able to get my extreme spread in muzzle velocity below 20 fps in most other calibers I can’t seem to do the same with my .223s that I use for PRS style competition Using a bolt action rifle. I use all the same tricks (weighing the powder to +/- .02 grain, lubing the case mouths, uniform case neck tension of .003”, uniform case weight, primer pockets, yada yada yada) but my “good” ESs are around 40 fps. Always measured on the same MagnetoSpeed chrono. I’m using 77 grain Sierra MKs with H4895 and CCI BR4s. I have also tried Varget, RL15, and CFE223.
At 100 yards the rifle pretty consistently shoots 0.4 to 0.6” groups.
What are you guys getting with your .223s? One the distances go over 700 yards the elevation gets a little sketchy.
Thanks

 

[SSchnd]

What brass are you using? Lapua? Do you anneal? Use a mandrel to uniform mouth and diameter? How much are you setting the shoulder back from the fired case shoulder measurement?

If the target feedback is small groups I would not get overly stressed about an SD. Some days my SD's are up but yet the group is small and round. It is nice to pair a good grouping with an SD under 10.

This is just a Berger 80.5 at 23.2 8208 about 10 Thou. jump in a 20" Service Rifle 1/7 WOA Wilson fired from the prone sling position firing two different 5 shots groups for load test, breaking position after shot 5.
100 yds in a pretty hefty wind, so not expecting a lot of wind input at 100 but it was strong . I did not hang a chrono on the rifle. Only want to know if the load will shoot in the new barrel. Caveat, I am not shooting bench rest I am the rest, so for 600 yards the target talked to me said ok for a 1 moa X ring at 600 yards.
H4895 has given me the same feedback in my Kreigers, Shillen Ratchet and Wilson barrels.

I did not click to center up after shot one, just looking for group shape and size. Do not count on the velocity at the target on this screenshot, my solo seems slower than my buddies.

 

[markm87]

My uniforming trick (since I don't anneal 223) is a light LEE Factory Crimp. Everything I load in 223 is expected to shoot to 1000 yards at some point. And if it's good weather, we'll stretch is out to 1300 yards.

For $15, you could try the crimp and i bet you might see more consistent results. If it doesn't help in your process/ammo, you're only out $15

 

[SecondsCount]

18" 1:8 Bartlein, Standard Deviation was 9 shot over a Labradar.

Load was once fired Lapua brass, hand trickled 23.1 8208XBR, 77 TMK, and Federal 205 primer. The brass was sized with a Mighty Armory sizing die that has the built in mandrel. I'm not sure if it was pure luck or an awesome load, as I shot one string and moved back to my bench to let the Labradar owner continue shooting.

 

[RegionRat]

What are you guys getting with your .223s? One the distances go over 700 yards the elevation gets a little sketchy.
Thanks

Your numbers for your recipe and context are as good or better than most.

223/556 is one of the more difficult cartridges to get low SD/ES based on context.

While some folks will try it in F-T/R, they are not shooting 77 SMK or typical loads or barrels. So, when they get good waterlines at 1000 yards, it is usually a heavier bullet (like 80, 80.5s 85s or 90s) in a heavy, long, match barrel and high pressure loads. It is still a challenge, brass life is very short, and that is why most folks will just go the 308 route.

So, unless you want to run a similar pattern and recipe as the fullbore or F-T/R folks, you can't expect their numbers.

You will probably be able to find more than a few threads about 223/556 and getting the SD/ES down. Just keep in mind that those 1000 yard folks are not shooting 77 grain bullets or short barrels.

 

[Cfshooter]

Most my match 223 loads have about 10-14 SD over 20 round strings. I do not anneal and use mostly Starline brass. Consistent brass prep, and always do everything in lots. I get about 5-6 loads on my cases and then start fresh again.

 

[Ned Ludd]

While I have been able to get my extreme spread in muzzle velocity below 20 fps in most other calibers I can’t seem to do the same with my .223s that I use for PRS style competition Using a bolt action rifle. I use all the same tricks (weighing the powder to +/- .02 grain, lubing the case mouths, uniform case neck tension of .003”, uniform case weight, primer pockets, yada yada yada) but my “good” ESs are around 40 fps. Always measured on the same MagnetoSpeed chrono. I’m using 77 grain Sierra MKs with H4895 and CCI BR4s. I have also tried Varget, RL15, and CFE223.
At 100 yards the rifle pretty consistently shoots 0.4 to 0.6” groups.
What are you guys getting with your .223s? One the distances go over 700 yards the elevation gets a little sketchy.
Thanks

You're not alone. This is one of the reasons few F-TR shooters use a .223 Rem at 1000 yd. Even with exceptional practices at the reloading bench, it can be very difficult to reliably keep ES under 20-25 fps with a .223 Rem and heavies. Thus, the vertical dispersion is sometimes greater than we would like. In my hands, ES values from 20-30 fps might be typical for 5 shot groups. However, the ES only gets higher with the longer strings used in F-TR matches (20+ shots).

So the real question becomes how much work is someone willing to do in order to try and decrease the ES below a certain level? You could certainly try turning necks if you haven't already done so. Uniforming the flash holes to .080" may also be of benefit. Testing several different small rifle primers might help get the ES a tick lower. But at some point, it may be that you simply have to accept what the relatively small .223 Rem case is giving you and try not to use it past 700 yd or so, or else simply live with the increased vertical and do the best you can.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

I use an a&d hr100a scale that measures to 0.002 grains (10x the resolution of an fx120i). 100% identical powder charges guaranteed.

i use an area 419 zero, amp annealer, amp press, henderson trimmer, primal rights cps, lapua brass, etc etc.

es still in the 50’s, completely unchanged from my old reloading set up (basic rcbs tools and terrible winchester brass with neck thickness variarion +/- 2 thou) and when my knowledge was 1/100,000th what it is now.

its very obvious that there is much more to play than just brass prep and consistent powder charges.

i plan on diving down this rabbit hole at some point and finding what the issue truly is (and a remedy for it).

 

[rckendall]

A year or more ago, after putting together a new AR15, I was testing loads etc and I accidentally found that using mag primers (CCI450) cut my ES & SD in half. I posted the results once in response to someone's question and several people thought it wasn't a legitimate test because I only had a few shots, 3 or 5 probably. But for me, the results showed on the target and the LabRadar told the same story.

With all that said, maybe try different primers, it is easy enough to do.

Richard

 

[Matt_3479]

your not the only one. I received a 223 barrel on trade with only 1 box of factory ammo through it, so naturally I bought an action to fit it lol. This barrel has been incredible! I’ve shot everything from 40gr blitzkings to 80gr amax and 10 different bullets in between. Everything (but 1 stupid bullet lol) would shoot .6 or better.

While I’m not an expert like some on here I have been reloading for close to 10 years, I have good equipment, good practice and excellent results for accuracy and numbers in every other caliber except 2! My 223 rem and my 20 tac ( a 223 parent case). While the 20 tac is strictly a hunting rifle it doesn’t overly bother me with es around 20 for shots at 350 and in. But my 223 I struggle to provide those numbers. I’ve tried almost everything to get better numbers and can’t seem to do so! So I’ll be following along closely as it drives me crazy. Accuracy is still good but the numbers just eat at me when every other caliber I’ve ever loaded has never shown me this much frustration lol

 

[RegionRat]

A year or more ago, after putting together a new AR15, I was testing loads etc and I accidentally found that using mag primers (CCI450) cut my ES & SD in half. I posted the results once in response to someone's question and several people thought it wasn't a legitimate test because I only had a few shots, 3 or 5 probably. But for me, the results showed on the target and the LabRadar told the same story.

With all that said, maybe try different primers, it is easy enough to do.

Richard

In some ways, heavy match barrels make testing/competing easier because they can tolerate a 20+ shot string without overheating, but the opposite is true for sporter profiles that may only get five shots before overheating.
If your primer change obviously improved your groups or cold bore performance, that’s the only thing that is important. By definition, if the waterline or groups at your distance of concern are good, then so are your velocity stats.

But, if you were talking about speed stats with 3 - 5 shots only, then naturally you have to either cool off and continue, or forget it and be happy since the uncertainty of those numbers is why folks probably made their comments on your speed stats.

The only useful point to those stats, is to make a prediction or use them as a quality control method to insure the outcome will or has stayed the same.

Three to five samples can be averaged, the ES can be found, but you must admit that those values by themselves are too weak to count on them telling you what happens a few shots down the road.

If you kept taking data, and it all looked good, then eventually you can say the QC controls are working and make a reliable ballistic prediction about the next outing.

If folks gave you a bad time about your sample size, they were not wrong. If your recipe change improved your groups and accuracy, that’s all that matters unless what they were trying to warn you is your 223 isn’t competative at 1000 yards based on short range groups and small samples.

Not every 223 needs to shoot past 600. At 600, many folks have achieved Master/High Master and Distinguished with 223s that have SD around 15. The folks who take them to >600 and win are rare.

 

[rckendall]

In some ways, heavy match barrels make testing/competing easier because they can tolerate a 20+ shot string without overheating, but the opposite is true for sporter profiles that may only get five shots before overheating.
If your primer change obviously improved your groups or cold bore performance, that’s the only thing that is important. By definition, if the waterline or groups at your distance of concern are good, then so are your velocity stats.

But, if you were talking about speed stats with 3 - 5 shots only, then naturally you have to either cool off and continue, or forget it and be happy since the uncertainty of those numbers is why folks probably made their comments on your speed stats.

The only useful point to those stats, is to make a prediction or use them as a quality control method to insure the outcome will or has stayed the same.

Three to five samples can be averaged, the ES can be found, but you must admit that those values by themselves are too weak to count on them telling you what happens a few shots down the road.

If you kept taking data, and it all looked good, then eventually you can say the QC controls are working and make a reliable ballistic prediction about the next outing.

If folks gave you a bad time about your sample size, they were not wrong. If your recipe change improved your groups and accuracy, that’s all that matters unless what they were trying to warn you is your 223 isn’t competative at 1000 yards based on short range groups and small samples.

Not every 223 needs to shoot past 600. At 600, many folks have achieved Master/High Master and Distinguished with 223s that have SD around 15. The folks who take them to >600 and win are rare.

Thanks for the in-depth response. I can’t agree with you more. To clarify, this was a 10 1/2” AR pistol that I was shooting off sand bags. It was and is a fun gun. It shoots out to 400 yards handily. I found the target and took a photo and let each person make their own decisions.

Thanks again Region Rat,
Richard

 

[Walt Krafft]

The 223 has a long skinny powder column compared to the short fat ones we see these days. Larger es and sd are an indication the powder is not burning consistently from round to round so that is where improvement can be found. More neck tension, crimping, hard jam on the front end. Different primer on the back end. Faster powder in the middle.

 

[Gunracer]

Wow, thanks for all the excellent replies. I compete with Lapua brass but practice with Lake City. I really haven’t seen much difference in numbers but group size is consistently better with the Lapua but not a lot. The comment about the .223 being such a long skinny column of powder makes me wonder if CCI 450s or another magnum primer might be helpful.
Overall it sounds like other folks are in the same boat. Nobody has reported getting ESs in the “teens” like you see with 6BRs and 6.5 Creedmore.

 

[Matt_3479]

Wow, thanks for all the excellent replies. I compete with Lapua brass but practice with Lake City. I really haven’t seen much difference in numbers but group size is consistently better with the Lapua but not a lot. The comment about the .223 being such a long skinny column of powder makes me wonder if CCI 450s or another magnum primer might be helpful.
Overall it sounds like other folks are in the same boat. Nobody has reported getting ESs in the “teens” like you see with 6BRs and 6.5 Creedmore.

Primers make a difference but is rarely tested as it’s hard to get. I have a load in the 223 im working on and settled on a charge. Haven’t bothered looking at the numbers cause they annoy me in the caliber like stated above lol. But I shot the same charge with federal gold metal primers and br4’s and the group was better with br’4s at 450 yards.

 

[Chilly807]

I've had similar experiences, you are not alone. Walt's comments above are spot on.

A slow powder for the bullet weight you're using isn't your friend.

The 223 seems to need more initial "load" before the bullet starts moving to promote a more complete powder burn, via increased neck tension or a mild crimp. Both will help. I stopped annealing my 223 cases and saw immediate improvement.

Magnum primers didn't help much in my case.

If your load is compressed at all, they don't seem to do well with that either. Finicky little things..

Everything points to incomplete or inconsistent combustion, once you solve that it'll come together to some degree. I'm happy to keep my SD numbers under 10, or slightly above it.

As has been said, they're not exactly a handicap for F-TR, but they ARE a challenge.
I'm used to easily achievable sub-10 fps SD numbers with a 6.5 CM, the 223 has been an exercise in perseverance.

 

[PracticalTactical]

While I have been able to get my extreme spread in muzzle velocity below 20 fps in most other calibers I can’t seem to do the same with my .223s that I use for PRS style competition Using a bolt action rifle. I use all the same tricks (weighing the powder to +/- .02 grain, lubing the case mouths, uniform case neck tension of .003”, uniform case weight, primer pockets, yada yada yada) but my “good” ESs are around 40 fps. Always measured on the same MagnetoSpeed chrono. I’m using 77 grain Sierra MKs with H4895 and CCI BR4s. I have also tried Varget, RL15, and CFE223.
At 100 yards the rifle pretty consistently shoots 0.4 to 0.6” groups.
What are you guys getting with your .223s? One the distances go over 700 yards the elevation gets a little sketchy.
Thanks

I have danced around the 223 precision camp fire for many years and gone down the rabbit hole far enough to reach what I believe to be the very end. I'll share with you what I have concluded...

BTW, I do not care about tactical division bullet or velocity restrictions... Just shoot in open division.

We can hit 2900 FPS with 90 grainers as long as your throat is long enough. I run 88 ELDMs and 90 Atips seated to touch the lands just under 2.700"... Yes 2.700"

Why seated out so far you might ask... Well 2 reasons.. it maximizes powder capacity so we can maximize velocity with reasonable pressures. The long seating depth equals long throat and if it is not effed up and oversize, thats a big IF BTW... the throat will align those long fussy high BC rounds so they start into the rifling nice and straight. If the throat is small enough.. just minimally clear of the bullet diameter, you will have no trouble holding 1/4 MOA at 100 yards.

BTW, if the throat is snug enough, it will help dramatically to reduce your velocity spreads because the bullet will not be canted off on an angle like it would be with a sloppy free bore.

I have gone to great lengths in my chambering efforts to control my freebore diameter using a throating reamer and a conical bushing that aligns the reamer in the bolt nose clearance hole.

This brings us to our next problem... Finding a 223 mag that will allow you to feed rounds of 2.700 long... Well Accurate Mag and MDT both make metal mags with 2 piece plastic inserts that can be modified using a little JB Weld and some milling.

As for my brass... I no longer bother with Lapua... I use IVI but I would prefer Lake City if I can get it. I buy once fired brass in quantities of at least 3000, and I process all of it including anneal. Once complete I weigh every case and write the weight on the case with a sharpie. Once complete, I sort all the cases into lots that are identical in weight within 1/10th grain.

I weigh my powder using a Vibra HT220 scale because it can weigh to 1/10th of the weight of a singe kernel of Varget... Yes cut one kernel into 10 pieces and it will detect it. The small 223 powder capacity requires more precise powder weights than cases with greater powder capacity.

With fire formed cases this recipe will produce velocity spreads that rarely exceed 10 FPS.

Anyway, it works well for me and I dont believe I will every change anything at this point except possibly some newfangled bullet one day.

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

A year or more ago, after putting together a new AR15, I was testing loads etc and I accidentally found that using mag primers (CCI450) cut my ES & SD in half. I posted the results once in response to someone's question and several people thought it wasn't a legitimate test because I only had a few shots, 3 or 5 probably. But for me, the results showed on the target and the LabRadar told the same story.

With all that said, maybe try different primers, it is easy enough to do.

Richard

3 or 5 shots is nowhere near enough, 20 would be sufficient….

i tried the same thing, going from 400’s to 450’s. in the beginning i got lucky and a few consistent ones, then over 20 shots it ended up being the same as the 400’s.

i don’t believe going to a hotter primer is the fix for the 223 issue.

the only rifle i have in 223 is a remington 700, i don’t trust the ignition on that action enough to do legitimate testing down the rabbit hole.

 

[RegionRat]

3 or 5 shots is nowhere near enough, 20 would be sufficient….

i tried the same thing, going from 400’s to 450’s. in the beginning i got lucky and a few consistent ones, then over 20 shots it ended up being the same as the 400’s.

i don’t believe going to a hotter primer is the fix for the 223 issue.

the only rifle i have in 223 is a remington 700, i don’t trust the ignition on that action enough to do legitimate testing down the rabbit hole.

In general, you raised a very important point on the bolt and ignition system.

Let us assume you trust us that 223 is difficult....

Then also trust us that paying attention to your firing pin and springs are important and you should also understand those issues before you tackle 223 out to 1k.

Make sure your FP springs are good or just go do yourself a favor and change them, they are cheaper than chasing down a rabbit hole with an empty gun....

Try to postpone ideas like taking 223 to 1k till you have mastered 600.

Carry on. YMMV

 

[Benchrest Braxton]

In general, you raised a very important point on the bolt and ignition system.

Let us assume you trust us that 223 is difficult....

Then also trust us that paying attention to your firing pin and springs are important and you should also understand those issues before you tackle 223 out to 1k.

Make sure your FP springs are good or just go do yourself a favor and change them, they are cheaper than chasing down a rabbit hole with an empty gun....

Try to postpone ideas like taking 223 to 1k till you have mastered 600.

Carry on. YMMV

i’m not even going to attempt to do any serious testing until I can get my hands on a bat or borden that has been completely gone over by someone competent in the art of ignition.