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Getting a featherweight barreled rifle to shoot????

Waiting between shots gives too much time for conditions to change. You could add an inch to your group for a wind shift. 2 quick shots may be your best indicator now that i think about it- before heat sinks in. I shoot a bunch of #2 and 3 barrels but youre dealing with a fluted #1 which is just a whole different animal. Great gun to carry tho- ive been waiting to come across an adirondack.
I'm with Dusty on this one. Considering the thermal conductivity of stainless steel, I believe his reasoning has a lot of merit. Also, if it throws shots in this mode, you want to know now....not out in the field.
Shooting late in the day or early morning can be counter-intuitive, what looks like dead calm usually is deceptive and this is the time of day thermals are created......and temp. inversions create mirage ...usually the slow moving variety where slow fire will net bad results. Remember, accuracy is always most consistent in a mild true crosswind.
 
Okay fellas, here is a range report from this afternoons shooting and as always thanks for all the replies and help. Conditions were as good as I have seen in a while...zero wind, clear, about 60 degrees. I shot 9 three shot groups, waiting for the barrel to cool between shots with a stop watch. I believe I may be fighting another problem...

1. 1 3/4"
2. 1 1/2"
3. .625"
4. 1 7/8"
5. 1 3/4"
6. 2 3/8"
7. .625"
8. .625"
9. 1 3/4"

All of the ammo was the same load with a lot of prep work. Bullet concentricity was all less than .002". One thing I saw that seems to indicate something else going on is that the groups which were larger all had one thing in common...either one or two rounds would impact almost exactly 1 to 1 1/8 inch either left or right of my aiming point. Unless it is possible for me to flinch that consistently something is causing flyers.
This rifle has a brand new Night Force SHV scope, which does not mean to say that it cannot be bad.

I also shot one of my other rifles this afternoon...I took a pre 64 Model 70 I just recently barreled in 30-06 Ackley with a Rock Creek barrel. here are the groups I shot with it:

1. .375"
2. .625"
3. .750
4. 1.0"

This was a 5 shot per group load test, group one had 57.0, 2. had 57.5, 3. had 58.0 and 4. 58.5 grains of powder. This rifle does not have a pencil barrel and I posted this info just to say "I can shoot."

Getting back to the 280AI, the biggest reason I say I think something else is going on is because I was really making a conscience effort to get off good shots and I was doing it...the shots felt good, not like I was flinching. I know it is hard to assess oneself, but I shoot enough that I usually know when I have pulled a shot before I look at the target. I was relaxed and really felt like I was shooting good. I was surprised to see the "flyers" when I did. I installed the break and shot two more groups to see the same basic sizes and flyers...really no change with or without the little break.
I don't think it is an ammo issue...I loaded these the same way I load all my "meant to be really accurate" ammo, but don't have a chrono to assess it. I have barreled probably near 50 actions in my lifetime and shot them all. I don't ever remember any that threw flyers and quit after a certain number of rounds of "break in." Never really had a flinching problem, but could be somehow I guess...but why doesn't it show on other rifles??? Bad scope??? Maybe, but can a scope be bad to throw a flyer then return somehow to the proper zero??? Never seen but a very few known really bad scopes in my lifetime, I thought they all just shot all over the target. Rifle is bedded, rings and bases have been double checked. Never had a thin barreled rifle, so I don't know if they can throw flyers and seem to return to the intended zero. As usual, when searching for the end of the mystery I always seem to end up more confused!!!
 
I am assuming this scope was not parallax adjustable.....did you check for or make adjustments for that (i.e. vignetting)?
Flags, ribbons? Shape of groups? L/R of aim point usually is "weather report". Depending on time between shots it could have been slow moving mirage- which you won't see without watching for it through high magnification scope over the course of a few minutes. This is why extended time between shots can be detrimental.
Did you try fore-end pressure?
 
Have you lapped your scope rings? I had a similar situation and after lapping the rings problem solved.
 
My friend has this very rifle you have. He had a hell of a time getting it to shoot consistently until he noticed the muzzle brake was bottoming out on the threads and not on tight to the shoulder like it should be. Luckily he has a lathe and builds his own rifles so he cut a new crown so the brake would snug to the shoulder tight like it is supposed to. Now the rifle with the brake shoots about 3/4 MOA consistently with a 162 Amax and the rifle took a bull elk at 435 yards this past fall. Are you still shooting this without the brake? When you glass bed the rifle did you float the barrel and if the barrel is free floated how much clearance does it have? I like to have 30 to 40 thousands clearance on the light weight barrels because they will have more barrel whip when fired than a heavier barrel.
 
I am assuming this scope was not parallax adjustable.....did you check for or make adjustments for that (i.e. vignetting)?
Flags, ribbons? Shape of groups? L/R of aim point usually is "weather report". Depending on time between shots it could have been slow moving mirage- which you won't see without watching for it through high magnification scope over the course of a few minutes. This is why extended time between shots can be detrimental.
Did you try fore-end pressure?


Yep, it's a side focus scope and it was adjusted. There was no wind and if it was a mirage problem why wouldn't it have seemed to affect the other rifle I was shooting??? I am saying "afternoon" but it really was more evening. Still, there was definite mirage coming off the barrel. Shape of groups was kind of all over the place, but the thing that got me was the same distance out from POA the flyers were. Suggest something mechanical to me??? I did not have a pressure point yet...one thing at a time. I intend to have one this evening.
 
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Have you lapped your scope rings? I had a similar situation and after lapping the rings problem solved.

No and I don't like and never use the type rings I have...just that these were all they had the day I got the rifle. It's those Redfield type made by Leupold with the windage adjustment on the back ring. The rifle comes with the one piece aluminum Talley lightweight rings, but they are 1" and my scope is 30mm. I have had good luck with Leupold dual dovetail rings and always lap them. Should have replaced them by now but haven't.
 
My friend has this very rifle you have. He had a hell of a time getting it to shoot consistently until he noticed the muzzle brake was bottoming out on the threads and not on tight to the shoulder like it should be. Luckily he has a lathe and builds his own rifles so he cut a new crown so the brake would snug to the shoulder tight like it is supposed to. Now the rifle with the brake shoots about 3/4 MOA consistently with a 162 Amax and the rifle took a bull elk at 435 yards this past fall. Are you still shooting this without the brake? When you glass bed the rifle did you float the barrel and if the barrel is free floated how much clearance does it have? I like to have 30 to 40 thousands clearance on the light weight barrels because they will have more barrel whip when fired than a heavier barrel.

I did inspect for that and tried the rifle with and without the brake...cant tell a difference. I did not crank down on the brake tight either, I just had it snug to avoid distorting the rifling at the muzzle. I do have a Hawkeye and have inspected the crown, it is perfect. The barrel is free floated and it has a good .060-070" clearance.
 
I guess my biggest question is can things like mirage, lapping scope rings, very slight breeze you can hardly feel, side focus that looks good but Okay, maybe a little off, .050" instead of .060" barrel clearance...cause a 1"-1 1/8" shift in POI from shot to shot???? Remember, it's doing all this at just 100 yards. Been at this a long time and I haven't seen it. Could I really be this lucky up until I got this rifle???
Maybe this thing really is just this hard to shoot...if that is true there aint no sense in me keeping it to hunt with. Although, I guess it will still hit a bear!!!!
 
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ACCURACY STANDARD

Kimber rifles are designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99" or less at 100 yards by a highly skilled and qualified shooter using factory ammunition.

It appears they do not guarantee accuracy!
 
Mirage can cause the shift in impact even at 100 yards winds less than 20 mph I don't see it happening with a 7mm bullet. One thing I have seen cause what you are experiencing is the rear swivel stud catching the bag on recoil. I guess if it was me and I thought I tried everything I could I would dump the rifle. For the price of those rifles you are in the range of what a custom rifle costs and you get more bang for your buck with the custom in my opinion.
 
ACCURACY STANDARD

Kimber rifles are designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99" or less at 100 yards by a highly skilled and qualified shooter using factory ammunition.

It appears they do not guarantee accuracy!


That sir is the same conclusion I reached after reading carefully!!!! You can best believe some lawyer vetted that statement.
 
Mirage can cause the shift in impact even at 100 yards winds less than 20 mph I don't see it happening with a 7mm bullet. One thing I have seen cause what you are experiencing is the rear swivel stud catching the bag on recoil. I guess if it was me and I thought I tried everything I could I would dump the rifle. For the price of those rifles you are in the range of what a custom rifle costs and you get more bang for your buck with the custom in my opinion.

I have in fact checked the rear swivel. Sinclair recommends that the swivels be removed, but I was able to get set up with no interference. I think my next move is to go ahead and make a "scope checker" device. I am the local "de facto" gunsmith around here and kind of have been needing one anyways. What I am seeing is pointing to a scope problem, but in my experience scopes are really more a scapegoat than anything. I just haven't seen in all my years of shooting all these bad scopes a lot of people are claiming. I know guys that claim to end up with more bad scopes a year than I have seen in my 41 years of shooting.
 
OP, one reason you are having a hard time figuring this out is because you have at least two large variable at work here. One is your rifle/scope, the other is your reloads so you are dealing with two unknowns at the same time. One way to deal with this is to shoot factory ammo that is known to be sub-MOA if this exist for your caliber.

The other reason I think comes back to your barrel. I understand that you did not have a similar problem with your other reloads with the 30-06 Ackley, but at least in my own hands, not all rifles are as easy to reload for. Specifically rifles with thinner barrels (and I am not even talking about featherweight barrels which would be the worst case situation) tend to have narrower accuracy nodes which makes them touchy to find the accuracy node and to have all rounds stay in the node. In this situation which I would bet you are in, unless you are dead center on the node and all the reloads are 100.00% the same, you are going to have fliers. Even people who have decent accuracy nodes but their loads are not center on the node but are on the edge of the node will see this – good solid grouping for most rounds and then a flier.

As far as I can see, you have a solid 1.5 MOA gun. Sure it is not 1 MOA but the question really comes down to the distance you are going to use the rifle for hunting. If it is 100 yards or less, the question is will that 0.5 MOA make a difference in terms of making a clean kill. If not, then I think you can drive yourself crazy and burn out the barrel and use a lot of time and component seeking something that makes no difference.
 
#1/Check out this on YouTube- Cooper Firearms Raptor.....it shows the factory test firing of a Cooper .308.....I can't tell what barrel contour, but they apparently see rapid fire as not an issue with accuracy.
#2/ Even though the scope has parallax adjustment....did you verify none was present.....the P/A markings on scopes are notorious for not being accurate.
#3/ What do the bullet holes look like....nice round holes that appear smaller than the caliber....or elongated? Have you checked the twist rate stability table on Bergers website that the bullets are in-fact OK for your twist rate?
#4/ You have three 5/8" groups out of 9, I don't think it's the load, either your cheeking harder on some, pulling the trigger inconsistent (pulling on edge and not center) or don't have parallax all out. Slow moving mirage will move you some of that 1-1/8" as will a missed light breeze -especially a reversal. You need flagging to eliminate these possibilities.
 
For those who thinks thin barrels and rapid fire is not an issue with PRECISION (not accuracy, these two terms are not interchangeable), here is a real world example of an “awkward moment” for Germany arm forces when they found out that their main battle rifle – the H&K G36 which has a “pencil barrel” “doesn’t shoot straight” when it gets hot…

http://bearingarms.com/awkward-moment-hk-fanboys-find-germans-call-g36-rifle-doesnt-shoot-straight/

How those idiots got themselves into that jam I have no idea....:oops:
 
You should probably just sell me that $500 rifle

I have to confess Mr. Stevens...the thought of selling it has crossed my mind a time or two, the thought of making someone happy would be great, especially you...but that $500.00 thing, I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that part!!!!!!
 

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