Getting a featherweight barreled rifle to shoot????

[msinc]

According to Kimber's website, that rifle is supposed to have a "sub MOA accuracy standard".
Was there a test target included with the rifle to prove it met that standard, or is that quote just a bunch of marketing crap?
If it did have a test target, I'd be trying whatever load Kimber used to prove that as a baseline for accuracy to work toward with your chosen bullet...

If it didn't, I'd be sending the rifle back to Kimber.

In my experiences, good shootin' rifles WANT to shoot. Finding a decent load should not be a quest for the Holy Grail.
Life is too short to jackwad around with a finicky rifle. That Kimber has a $2K MSRP, it should shoot in line with the price tag...

No test target...it has a tag that is printed like a test target with a nice little 3 shot group that gives the appearance of a test target.
Inside the tag are the magic words..."This Kimber rifle is designed to be capable of shooting a 3-shot group of .99" or less at 100 yards by a highly skilled and qualified shooter using factory ammunition."
"Is capable" or "will do it" is quite a bit different than "is designed to be"...they are all "designed to be" and whether or not it is "designed to be" doesn't really mean that it necessarily will be. I am sure if I called Kimber and pushed the issue I would hear those or similar words.

In all fairness I am shooting this thing without the muzzle break installed...I don't like the back blast form a break and would a whole lot rather just take the recoil. it is a pretty small break and I wonder if the lack of could be detrimental to accuracy??? What if it acts like a Boss for the barrel??? I will try a few test shots with it installed to see.

Totally agree about the finicky rifle thing and that it should shoot in line with the price...nobody gets this better than me, I wrote the check. I guess I sort of expected the rifle to be somewhat picky about the ammo and the way it has to be shot. My biggest thing regarding an accuracy guaranty is that I am not sure how/why Kimber can give one anyway...this rifle has a cut rifled barrel. We all know that a cut rifled barrel requires some sort of break in period, yet probably most buyers are going to expect the rifle to perform according to the guaranty of accuracy right out of the box. As rough as the grooves are on this barrel I am glad I don't have to hold my breath....

 

[billlarson]

I am referring to this phenomenon: Set up a Scoped rifle in the bags and without touching the set-up observe the subtle movement of the crosshairs in relation to the target through extended periods .....15 min. , 30 min.. etc./i.e. the POA wanders. This is most easily observed with higher power optics >25 x. The POA moves due to atmospheric refraction due to temperature differences along the optical path....aka mirage.
Now, if the OP's goal is to shoot small groups routinely( which is what I read into his thread), his best chance for success is to shoot all 3 shots under the same atmospheric conditions........which is exactly why in a typical registered BR Score match, given a day nice calm day ,while one can adjust POA to POI in the warm-up match or even into Match 1, one must "hold off" (Kentucky windage if you like) in the succeeding matches (2 thru 5). On a day with huge temp. swings each match may require a different hold off.This is due to the warming up of the environs as the day gets longer.
FWIW, just because you cannot see the mirage impacting POA does not mean it's not affecting your group size.

HUNTING RIFLE............ LITE BARREL............NOT BENCHREST............. 1 COLD BORE SHOT....... SIGHTED IN FOR SNOW,RAIN,HEAT........

 

[msinc]

Now, if the OP's goal is to shoot small groups routinely( which is what I read into his thread), his best chance for success is to shoot all 3 shots under the same atmospheric conditions........which is exactly why in a typical registered BR Score match, given a day nice calm day ,while one can adjust POA to POI in the warm-up match or even into Match 1, one must "hold off" (Kentucky windage if you like) in the succeeding matches (2 thru 5). On a day with huge temp. swings each match may require a different hold off.This is due to the warming up of the environs as the day gets longer.
FWIW, just because you cannot see the mirage impacting POA does not mean it's not affecting your group size.

I think I might have done a bad job of explaining my goal here...I am not actually trying to use this as a target rifle and shoot great groups whenever I want to. It would, admittedly, be nice if the rifle shot so good that I could take it out to my range and enjoy the ability to print some good groups, but that isn't my immediate concern.
It is a hunting rifle and that's what my intentions are. I would like to get it zeroed to the point that I feel comfortable picking it up to take hunting. I want to be confident that this rifle, when depended upon, will do it's job if I do mine. Part of that confidence thing is knowing exactly what kind of accuracy I can expect given a bullet/load combination. For this test and load development I thought it would be best if I took out or abated as much human element as possible, hence the bench rest set up for testing.

 

[BoydAllen]

I find that it is common for shooters to believe that a light hold is best, and in many cases they are wrong. Also, where the front bag is on the forend can have a major effect. If I were trying to shoot your rifle, I would move the front rest back so that the back of the bag was about 3" in front of front of the action, and hang onto the rifle like is had a lot of recoil, pulling it into my shoulder, cheeking it, and gripping the stock with my trigger hand...making every effort to do all of that consistently. I would even try putting both hands on the stock. In the past, out of curiosity, I have tried a lot of ways to shoot my 10.5# 6PPC, and on a day when there was absolutely no wind for quite a stretch, and the rifle was in top tune, I was able to shoot mid ones with both hands on the rifle, gripping, cheeking, and shouldering it.

 

[LHSmith]

OK, ONE MORE TIME...IF the OP's sole purpose of the rifle is to rely on that first cold bore shot......then I agree with shooting one shot on different days.
If the OP's intent is to obtain the best groups out of this hunting rifle then I stand by my method in post 20.
#1 contour hunting rifle or HV bench rifle with a hummer barrel......does not matter ....any mirage you are not able to read will affect your group. Don't know where you live, but IME shooting on different days even if the conditions appear to be the same with the naked eye will not produce the optimum accuracy that rifle is capable of.

 

[LHSmith]

Thanks for all the replies fellas!!! I will try to answer in order...

Expectations: I would like to see a 1" 3 shot group.





Two minutes between shots: Yes sir, it generally takes longer than that...this thing has really got a pencil for a pipe and to top it off they even fluted it!!!

A 3 shot group is one shot with-in a relatively short time frame....usually not over several days. Someone has to let me know if I have been misinformed all these years.
One disadvantage of fluting is the barrel will heat up much quicker than if that particular contour was left unfluted.

 

[LHSmith]

One LAST note. Every featherweight rifle I have had needed a pressure point at the fore-end. I simply experimented with varying layers of tape until the groups got small.

 

[normmatzen]

Well, Boyd is right again!
My Brother has my fathers old Husqvarna 7mm REM MAG and it is very light with a pencil barrel. I built two hunting rifles to be VERY accurate and his always out does my guns. Maybe I should say my Brother can out shoot me!
I would shoot a 3 shot group as quickly as possible preferably using its sling and preferably prone. The sling should be set up like a hi-power sling. This will most likely allow the rifle to shoot its best in the manner it was designed for. At least use the sling on the bench to stabilize the front hold which will not introduce artificial stresses and resonances the gun will not experience on a hunting trip.

 

[Changeling]

A #1 barrel is a mighty thin barrel to be fluted. I didn't think they (anyone) fluted barrels till they were at least a #3.

If Kimber has an accuracy guarantee call them and ask what loads they were using in your rifle with a #1 barrel.

You have a very nice rifle that you paid a hefty sum for, make them earn some of that money by backing the accuracy guarantee with good hunting bullets of your choice (not target bullets), though all rifles are prone to shoot what they like best. If it was me I'd shoot a 100 rounds or so before I seriously worked up a load for hunting.

Wish you the best of luck, very nice rifle.

 

[normmatzen]

I also forgot one important point. It is not unusual for someone to install a brake on their gun and find it shoots better.
If this gun came with a brake installed, I would certainly not remove it and expect it to shoot better. The brake will add a concentrated weight to the end of the barrel and it WILL change the tune.
If Kimber said it is designed to shoot 3 shot groups less than .99" you owe it to yourself to put the brake back on and try again.
If the brake gives you problems, you may want to re-think your choice of hearing protection. My 284WIN Bench Rest gun has a brake on it and with my hearing protection in place, I can't tell a difference shooting it with or without the brake.

 

[dryhumor]

I'd try smaller increments in charge weight. I have a M7 6.5x47 with a pencil barrel. I found the nodes were small; and it took a bit of fine tuning to find the load.

 

[MrMajestic]

I find that it is common for shooters to believe that a light hold is best, and in many cases they are wrong. Also, where the front bag is on the forend can have a major effect. If I were trying to shoot your rifle, I would move the front rest back so that the back of the bag was about 3" in front of front of the action, and hang onto the rifle like is had a lot of recoil, pulling it into my shoulder, cheeking it, and gripping the stock with my trigger hand...making every effort to do all of that consistently. I would even try putting both hands on the stock. In the past, out of curiosity, I have tried a lot of ways to shoot my 10.5# 6PPC, and on a day when there was absolutely no wind for quite a stretch, and the rifle was in top tune, I was able to shoot mid ones with both hands on the rifle, gripping, cheeking, and shouldering it.

^

 

[msinc]

A 3 shot group is one shot with-in a relatively short time frame....usually not over several days. Someone has to let me know if I have been misinformed all these years.
One disadvantage of fluting is the barrel will heat up much quicker than if that particular contour was left unfluted.

Well, I guess it could go either way, I mean, it depends on why you are "grouping" the rifle. In this case, for me I intend to do it both ways for both reasons. First, to see just how tightly I can get them, accuracy capability. Second, different times from a completely cold bore so I know what to expect when I use the rifle to hunt.
I understand/agree about the fluting, it was done to get this rifle as light in weight as possible. Plus, it's already done, so it's kinda past caring.

 

[msinc]

I find that it is common for shooters to believe that a light hold is best, and in many cases they are wrong. Also, where the front bag is on the forend can have a major effect. If I were trying to shoot your rifle, I would move the front rest back so that the back of the bag was about 3" in front of front of the action, and hang onto the rifle like is had a lot of recoil, pulling it into my shoulder, cheeking it, and gripping the stock with my trigger hand...making every effort to do all of that consistently. I would even try putting both hands on the stock. In the past, out of curiosity, I have tried a lot of ways to shoot my 10.5# 6PPC, and on a day when there was absolutely no wind for quite a stretch, and the rifle was in top tune, I was able to shoot mid ones with both hands on the rifle, gripping, cheeking, and shouldering it.

This is pretty much exactly what I am doing. I have played around with where the bags are, not much if any difference shows up at the target. I have actually never had much luck shooting hunting rifles off the bench using a light hold. I don't think it is too good an idea not getting a good grip on a 280 AI that weighs in at all of 5 pounds...unless of course you need for your eyebrow to be bruised and bleeding. They can talk all the "mild" they want to about the 280 AI...burning around 60 grains of powder in a very light rifle has nothing mild about it. "Hang onto it like it had a lot of recoil...." Aint no "had", it does!!!!! I think I am also going to try a pressure point in the forend, as suggested...don't cost anything or take much to find out.

 

[msinc]

I'd try smaller increments in charge weight. I have a M7 6.5x47 with a pencil barrel. I found the nodes were small; and it took a bit of fine tuning to find the load.

This sure seems to be the case, although admittedly I haven't really found a good starting point. Will do some heavy testing this weekend.

 

[jlow]

Somewhere in this thread, people needs to remember that the OP is not a benchrest shooter looking to shoot groups in the 2s but just trying to find the best way to see if his rifle would shoot "1 inch 3 shot groups"....

If waiting a couple of minutes for the barrel to cool means a shooter cannot determine his rifle is sub-MOA capable, then we have all been dreaming and/or are all in trouble...

 

[LHSmith]

Somewhere in this thread, people needs to remember that the OP is not a benchrest shooter looking to shoot groups in the 2s but just trying to find the best way to see if his rifle would shoot "1 inch 3 shot groups"....

If waiting a couple of minutes for the barrel to cool means a shooter cannot determine his rifle is sub-MOA capable, then we have all been dreaming and/or are all in trouble...

And some posters don't have a clue about how mirage comes in different forms and that it impacts POA whether using a pencil thin barrelled hunting gun or a 1-1/2 dia. rail gun. The OP asked for help here on Accurate Shooter , under "Big Stuff" not in the Hunting Forum, he's prepping brass so he want's it to shoot small. Again if what we Benchresters learn is not considered useful to you recreational shooters, I for one will spend my time elsewhere.

 

[msinc]

And some posters don't have a clue about how mirage comes in different forms and that it impacts POA whether using a pencil thin barrelled hunting gun or a 1-1/2 dia. rail gun. The OP asked for help here on Accurate Shooter , under "Big Stuff" not in the Hunting Forum, he's prepping brass so he want's it to shoot small. Again if what we Benchresters learn is not considered useful to you recreational shooters, I for one will spend my time elsewhere.

Let me be clear, I very much want/need and appreciate every tidbit of info I can get...whether or not anyone else necessarily agrees with it. There are some very good points made in this thread. I haven't seen anything that is not true yet, but even if there was I think we all agree that we can learn just as much by what to do as what not to do.
I would like to see this rifle shoot as small as it can and I would also like to know just how small it will shoot. I figure the most I can do should be done that is in my control. I am well aware of the mirage issue...in fact, I really do not have the first clue why, but around here for some strange reason it is worse than any other place I have ever seen. I see mirage thru the scope before I ever fire the first shot. maybe it's "that time of year" because the days are getting longer??? I don't know, but I know this...it can be a bad thing to try and deal with!!! The best high end optics can only help so much, I believe the effects of mirage on shooting is way worse with less than fantastic optics.
It was my intention to test my shots from one day to the next like 1/2 hour before sunset. I don't see mirage much at all then. Any better ideas for this???? Thanks a million guys for all the very informative posts!!!!

 

[jlow]

And some posters don't have a clue about how mirage comes in different forms and that it impacts POA whether using a pencil thin barrelled hunting gun or a 1-1/2 dia. rail gun. The OP asked for help here on Accurate Shooter , under "Big Stuff" not in the Hunting Forum, he's prepping brass so he want's it to shoot small. Again if what we Benchresters learn is not considered useful to you recreational shooters, I for one will spend my time elsewhere.

You know, I just don’t understand why some BR shooters always feel so under appreciated? Their contribution to precision reloading/shooting does not need to be touted because we all know and understand what it is - PERIOD.

The point of my comment was not that they do not contribute but some of the advice went above and beyond what I think it needs for someone to shoot sub-MOA groups. It’s like does anyone doubt a micrometer gives the most accurate reading when measuring something? No, but sometimes it is an overkill, THAT is the point. Chill out…

 

[dryhumor]

Let me be clear, I very much want/need and appreciate every tidbit of info I can get...whether or not anyone else necessarily agrees with it. There are some very good points made in this thread. I haven't seen anything that is not true yet, but even if there was I think we all agree that we can learn just as much by what to do as what not to do.
I would like to see this rifle shoot as small as it can and I would also like to know just how small it will shoot. I figure the most I can do should be done that is in my control. I am well aware of the mirage issue...in fact, I really do not have the first clue why, but around here for some strange reason it is worse than any other place I have ever seen. I see mirage thru the scope before I ever fire the first shot. maybe it's "that time of year" because the days are getting longer??? I don't know, but I know this...it can be a bad thing to try and deal with!!! The best high end optics can only help so much, I believe the effects of mirage on shooting is way worse with less than fantastic optics.
It was my intention to test my shots from one day to the next like 1/2 hour before sunset. I don't see mirage much at all then. Any better ideas for this???? Thanks a million guys for all the very informative posts!!!!

I think we all want to see all a rifle has to offer, accuracy wise. It takes a lot of time and effort sometimes. The payoff is when your load is consistent at an inch or better; and the trophy of a lifetime steps out at "fair poke".

I believe shooting at dawn and dusk will help you sort out the rifle. Better conditions most days. And, typically when most shots hunting are made.

That said, I've seen a lot of nice ones in real crap conditions.....