FX-120i, FX-200i, FX-300i Problems

[T-shooter]

I wasn't suggesting you switch to a beam scale, I was looking to infer that using one puts the responsibility of deciding just where the pointer reads when you're happy on you rather than trusting firmware to make that decision for you.

I started this journey with an RCBS 5-0-5 years ago. First upgrade was to a Dillon D-terminator (not the current model) which was awful on AC adapter or batteries, so I gave it away.

Then came a Lyman DPS 1200 (Gen 1) which I still have... in the original box. It worked OK but for the cleaning required after a charging session.

Somewhere along the line I bought a Harrell's thrower to get bulk charges out quick that then got 'finished' by whatever means I was using at the time. Still have it, still use it regularly, still works fine.

Bought a Denver Instruments MMX-123 after the Dillon. Trickled up using a primed 308 or 6XC case until the original Omega trickler appeared. Buying THAT was a revelation!

Then Adam's auto trickler appeared last year kindling such rave reviews I decided to spend the $$$ necessary to acquire the least costly scale it'd work with, an A&D FX120i.

Talk about revelations....

I'd dreamed of maybe 'leasing' a Prometheus but'd rather spend what $$$$ I have on components, or barrels.

Heard tell of something called a Gundersen but they're as rare as the Sasquatch.

With the 120i I can charge & seat 50 Palma rounds in 29 minutes easy, to an accuracy of +/- 0.002 grams. Most are right on the mark, but as I shoot sling & irons & my 1,000 yd. X-ring's 10" in dia., that spread seems to be 'good enough' for now.

I'm adding the LC1200 for the teensy bit of uncertainty I see during two distinct daytime intervals when I suspect folks on my AC grid are preparing meals....

I've noticed that at certain periods in the daytime I have more trouble, but haven't pinned it down. I've had 2 different GemPro-300s, a Veritas S63 (by far the worst of the bunch, the nickname Driftomatic comes to mind), a US-Solid balance that weighed to .0001 gram. I had problems with it too but could average +/- .004 gram some of the time. Still a pain to use was too big at over 13" tall, and it has to be closed up to weigh anything because any slight breeze made it wander all over. I got a Hornady Autocharger for Christmas last year. Nice for getting close,better than a Lee powder spoon. I set it for -1/10 grain and trickle the rest. Over about 50 loads, I saw it vary in a full 3/10 grain range. And then this FX-300i about a month ago. I tried to order the 120i but couldn't find one and got the 300i for the same price.

I made a small diameter weighing platform for this scale (on another post in this forum). It does help with minor air disturbances and is easier to use with the breeze guard open on 2 sides. 2.75" diameter vs 5.1" diameter. I use the Omega trickler too. Yes, a revelation from using the old style trickler and counting kernels.

So far today, it's been pretty stable. I think the trick may be to weigh the charge and if on the crossover point between 2 weights, add 1 kernel of powder and see if it stabilizes, and then remove it before filling the case. Also check every few weighings with a test weight. The other day it seemed to always fluctuate up, not down. If the number fluctuated and/or I lifted and replaced the pan for a second or third reading, the lower weight was the accurate one. I used a couple test weights to verify the scale was true. It would either settle on the exact weight or +.02GN. I still need to experiment more but maybe this thing will work after all.

 

[Macropod]

Although it may not be related to your drifting issue, this was my observation. The weight of the pan I was using just happened to be exactly in between the counting increments of my A&D FX120. Being on that threshold meant that it could look like drifting when it actually wasn't.

I took a small shaving of aluminium off with a sharp pocket knife so it was close to the exact weight indicated and not in between counts. Not a drift issue per se but it made it a lot nicer to live with.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

One thing to keep in mind is when a scale is sensitive enough to read down to the 0.02 grain level, it is going to be affected by vibration. I know that the OP has taken some precautions but if you look at how our laboratory scales are setup in the lab, they sit on a huge piece of marble, probably at least a couple hundred pounds in weight and the legs are also marble so adds up to easily over 500 pounds.

If your house is located close to any road, you are going to get vibrations. I still remember an apartment I lived in when I first got started which was about 100 yards from a highway and every time a semi went over an expansion joint on the highway, that thump, thump, I could feel the vibration in the house. That of course is extreme vibration but I could imagine that even something 10% of that would throw the balance off by 0.02 grain....

fwiw,
I am right on the front of one of our farms and tractors, combines, and loaded hopper bottom grain trucks are coming and going regularly. The house literally shakes and yet my Sartorius seems isolated. Going to three vibration isolators made it easier to level as well as what seems like doing away any scale issue...fwiw & imho.

Regards, Matt.

Edited: What was I thinking with Prometheus...

 

[rox]

I had to reset the zero once because the negative weight when the powder pan was removed changed.

I suspect that part of the problem may be that your weighing process is inhibiting the balance's zero-tracking functionality from operating effectively.

These balances require functioning zero-tracking to prevent drift from accumulating over the course of a weighing/loading session. Typical 'throw-and-trickle' workflows can prevent the zero-tracking functionality from working. The balance needs to 'see' zero (or 'near' zero) for a short period, ideally every weighing cycle. If you zero the balance with the powder pan on the balance tray, and your workflow involves throwing a charge into the pan before you place it on the balance, it never sees zero, so zero-tracking is effectively disabled.

The effect is easy to demonstrate.

Start with the balance warmed-up for several hours in a good weighing environment (low vibration, low airflow, stable temperature etc).
Zero the balance.
Leave it for an hour or so.
You should see the balance hold zero.

Now try the same, but with an object on the balance tray, so the reading is significantly non-zero. Make a note of the weight and see what it reads after an hour or so. You'll probably see a little drift appearing much sooner than that.

The solution for charge weighing is to zero the balance with the balance tray empty. Weigh your powder pan, then use the pan weight plus desired charge weight as your target. In this way, each time you remove the powder pan to dump the charge the balance sees zero which allows zero-tracking to function and drift is eliminated, even over long weighing sessions. This is the way my powder dispensers work, and they hold zero and retain accuracy over sessions of several hours. It even cancels out the effect of the odd kernel spilling onto the balance tray. I've compared the readings from two FX-120s on a 0.0001g analytical balance and they have always been as expected.

 

[spclark]

Interesting explanation rox, you may be on to something. Thanks for pointing this out.

 

[Matt in Virginia]

Sounds to me like you need a line conditioner.

fwiw,
I DO run a commercial line conditioner. They are intended for the financial sector and are generally unavailable to the civilian market. I received three for free from a friend who works in the industry and there have been night and day difference on the gear plugged into it. The simplest thing is that my desk lamp, an antique American Made Stiffel no longer ticks on and off like a teletype... The setup is now reversed with the surge suppressor catching power out of the wall and routing it into the power conditioner. A PowerVar 3.0... You can find them on Ebay fairly cheap.

Regards, Matt.

 

[T-shooter]

fwiw,
I DO run a commercial line conditioner. They are intended for the financial sector and are generally unavailable to the civilian market. I received three for free from a friend who works in the industry and there have been night and day difference on the gear plugged into it. The simplest thing is that my desk lamp, an antique American Made Stiffel no longer ticks on and off like a teletype... The setup is now reversed with the surge suppressor catching power out of the wall and routing it into the power conditioner. A PowerVar 3.0... You can find them on Ebay fairly cheap.

Regards, Matt.

Nice. Wonder how much better it is than a TrippLite L1200 line conditioner? I also have an Isobar 2 outlet surge protector. The manual says that you can plug the line conditioner into one of their surge protectors. I contacted their tech support and they said: "Plugging one surge suppressor into another can only create problems, it doesn't make either device more effective." I tried plugging the smaller unit into the rear of the line conditioner and it seems to calm down the scale. I guess there is a certain amount of noise filtering in both. I check more into this later. I did see the scale respond to a couple ferrite chokes on the power cord. I had several cheap ones but ordered a couple from OldWillKnottScales and double wrapped the cord according to their instructions. Can't say for sure but they seemed to noticeably help.

In the last couple days, the FX300i has been running pretty well. I'll report on it in the next day or two. It has been on all the time and most of the time the scale reads the exact same negative weight with the pan removed and the exact same weights using a couple test weights. It was a little off early today several times bouncing between 2 numbers, for whatever reason, and then would stabilize again. Today, it has been 100% stable for several hours and I've put the test weight on and off probably 100 times. The positive and negative reading never varies. Seems like it's been having more issues early in the mornings until past noon. I'm going to watch it tomorrow morning again.

 

[rardoin]

Nice. Wonder how much better it is than a TrippLite L1200 line conditioner?

Probably $1K or more better. The first line conditioner I bought (with NIH grant money....our tax dollars) was for the power supply to a transmission electron microscope. The conditioner cost about $7K....the TEM cost $110K (late 1980's). The Tripplite LC products will not smooth out RF interference to the extent of either of the above mentioned units but should clean up the power supply enough to allow proper function of the scale in reference.

 

[T-shooter]

Probably $1K or more better. The first line conditioner I bought (with NIH grant money....our tax dollars) was for the power supply to a transmission electron microscope. The conditioner cost about $7K....the TEM cost $110K (late 1980's). The Tripplite LC products will not smooth out RF interference to the extent of either of the above mentioned units but should clean up the power supply enough to allow proper function of the scale in reference.

The specs on the LC1200 are (EMI / RFI AC Noise Suppression 75dB) and the Isobar outlet is (EMI / RFI Filtering 40-80 dB). Last night I tried plugging directly into the house electric. The scale instantly became more unstable. I also tried just the line conditioner and the line conditioner with the outlet plugged into the rear. It seems more stable with both. Also I noticed a difference installing two of the Fair-Rite RCT-2 Ferrite Bead chokes on the power cord and looping the cord through them. Another source of interference I read about is a powered boosted TV antenna. It's 20' away from the scale. I did try turning off the WiFi which didn't help.

The scale is more behaved today. Overnight it drifted up 2 divisions. I re-zeroed the pan and it's back to normal. The temp dropped in the room probably 10 degrees overnight which could have caused that. I have the speed Mode to "FAST", the Stability to "0", and the Zero Tracking set to "3", the highest setting. Sometimes it will settle on a reading 1 division high and withing 3-5 seconds return to the correct reading. Sunday past noon, it only varied once settling 2 divisions high (75.04 GN). I replaced the pan and it didn't change. I then touched the weighing platform and it returned to the regular weight for the rest of the day. That was the only flaw in 12 hours and probably well over 100 weighings. I left the weight and pan on the scale all day but sometimes removing it for a couple minutes. It never drifted and I had 2 side of the breeze shield off and a window about 3' away open a couple inches. The scale always had the same weight and the same negative reading with everything removed. I used a 10 gram weight from time to time and it always weighed 154.32 GN.

I'm starting to trust this scale now. What I wanted to see is the same weight displayed every time. I'm still watching the negative reading every time and when weighing a load, set the pan on and off maybe 3 times to see if it varies. And check every few weighings with a test weight to confirm it hasn't drifted. I may have the problems solved now but I think my hair may have gotten a little more gray in the last few weeks!

 

[lrgoodger]

Your scale isn't doing anything it isn't supposed to do. Mine behaves exactly as yours does. It's sensitivity to temperature changes and air currents is going to make it bobble a position up or down on occasion, but it should return to the correct reading when the condition is corrected. As with all digital instruments, there will be a one digit bobble as the sensor is crossing a division threshold. Some instruments are programmed to ignore this bobble and not change the reading until it it actually two divisions different on the sensor. That keeps the display from rapidly going back and forth when crossing a threshold.

The comment about allowing the scale to auto zero between weighings is correct. Leaving a weight on the scale for a long period is bound to result in some drift back and forth (usually just one unit) over time. No matter how stable you think your environment is, it is constantly fluctuating to some degree. Moving your hand to the pan will result in a reading change, and it will drop back when you remove your hand. Is it the air movement caused by your hand or is it the body temperature causing the change? I have deliberately moved my hand in very slowly so as not to create a wind draft and it still changes. This makes me believe body temperature is having an effect, or maybe it's a combination of both temperature and air movement. It is a VERY sensitive instrument. My scale sits near a sliding glass door and in the evening when the sun gets low, direct sunlight hitting the scale makes it go crazy. There are no air currents involved. It must be those darned photons. Actually it is varying temperature from the sun's radiation hitting the scale. All I have to do is drop the shade and it settles right down.

As you have noted, one kernel of Varget will change the reading by one division. If I drop a kernel into the pan to zero in on final charge weight, sometimes it won't change or it will take three or four seconds for the scale to respond. That is because the weight change is very near a threshold. Lightly touching the pan and allowing it to re-settle usually gets it to go to the number I expected.

If I have a charge that is fluctuating between two readings, that means it is near the threshold. If I drop in a kernel and it goes to fluctuating between the next two higher readings, than means the kernel was almost exactly the weight of one division and it moved the weight near the next higher threshold. If I cut a kernel in half, it stabilizes the reading because it centers the weight between the two thresholds. That's how sensitive this scale is.

 

[T-shooter]

Your scale isn't doing anything it isn't supposed to do. Mine behaves exactly as yours does. It's sensitivity to temperature changes and air currents is going to make it bobble a position up or down on occasion, but it should return to the correct reading when the condition is corrected. As with all digital instruments, there will be a one digit bobble as the sensor is crossing a division threshold. Some instruments are programmed to ignore this bobble and not change the reading until it it actually two divisions different on the sensor. That keeps the display from rapidly going back and forth when crossing a threshold.

The comment about allowing the scale to auto zero between weighings is correct. Leaving a weight on the scale for a long period is bound to result in some drift back and forth (usually just one unit) over time. No matter how stable you think your environment is, it is constantly fluctuating to some degree. Moving your hand to the pan will result in a reading change, and it will drop back when you remove your hand. Is it the air movement caused by your hand or is it the body temperature causing the change? I have deliberately moved my hand in very slowly so as not to create a wind draft and it still changes. This makes me believe body temperature is having an effect, or maybe it's a combination of both temperature and air movement. It is a VERY sensitive instrument. My scale sits near a sliding glass door and in the evening when the sun gets low, direct sunlight hitting the scale makes it go crazy. There are no air currents involved. It must be those darned photons. Actually it is varying temperature from the sun's radiation hitting the scale. All I have to do is drop the shade and it settles right down.

As you have noted, one kernel of Varget will change the reading by one division. If I drop a kernel into the pan to zero in on final charge weight, sometimes it won't change or it will take three or four seconds for the scale to respond. That is because the weight change is very near a threshold. Lightly touching the pan and allowing it to re-settle usually gets it to go to the number I expected.

If I have a charge that is fluctuating between two readings, that means it is near the threshold. If I drop in a kernel and it goes to fluctuating between the next two higher readings, than means the kernel was almost exactly the weight of one division and it moved the weight near the next higher threshold. If I cut a kernel in half, it stabilizes the reading because it centers the weight between the two thresholds. That's how sensitive this scale is.

Exactly what I've found. When mine was on the threshold, 2 particles of salt took it to the next level and it usually settled right down. That's approximately .008 of a grain, just enough. Also reaching out to the scale seems to have more of an effect when is on the threshold too. Mine will change with the breeze brake on buy getting close to the front or the left side. The right side doesn't seem to matter as much. All the anti-static measured didn't really help. I tried a small magnet and that didn't do anything either. Something makes it move but I have no idea what. the small weighing platform helps, it's not nearly as sensitive to small air disturbances.

I have had it on all day since 8am (EST), the temp in the room as rose about 5-6 degrees and the scale is still stable. It hasn't failed to give the exact same weight or show the exact same negative weight. A few times it took a little longer to settle, maybe 5 seconds, but usually it's almost instant. I think a lot of the problems were electrical interference. When I first got it, the scale was as stable as a row boat in a typhoon. Occasionally it would work right for a while and then go crazy again even though the environmental conditions were steady. After the new ferrite chokes and the line conditioner, it's has been 99% perfect. I'm using it now without it being grounded to earth and without the anti-static wrist strap which never did seem to do anything. Maybe it likes me now!

 

[Richard Coody]

I have the A&D FX- 120i coming. Already have.the trickler

Bought a Ferman AC-215A line conditioner. Anyone know if that is a good one

 

[T-shooter]

I have the A&D FX- 120i coming. Already have.the trickler

Bought a Ferman AC-215A line conditioner. Anyone know if that is a good one

I hope all of my problems will help someone else. I appreciate all the help and replies. I think a large portion of the problems with the scale was in the electrical feed. I had some cheap ferrite chokes on the power cord. They seemed worthless. Someone suggested these (Fair-Rite RCT-2 Ferrite Bead)so I ordered 2 and saw an immediate change. Can't say for sure if they helped, but the scale got a lot more stable as soon as I installed them. I followed the instruction here. (http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/how-to-install-a-ferrite-bead.html)

The line conditioner seemed to help and so did adding another filter to the rear, (a Tripplite 2 outlet box). These both are suppose to filter EMI and RFI AC Noise. Maybe both together added more filtering. I tried all combinations and it seem this was the best.

When you get yours, allow it to warm to room temperature, then calibrate. These are very sensitive to being exactly level and to any air movement and to changes in temperature and barometric pressure.

For the last 6 days mine has been very stable. I used a couple weights to check and they weighed exactly the same nearly 100% of the time. I left it sit all night with weight on it and all night with the powder pan off showing a negative weight. Nothing changed. Put the weights back on and it showed the same readings. Yesterday a storm was coming in so I opened the window and allowed the conditions to change. The barometer went from 30.05 to 29.40 and the temp from 75 to 66 degrees. The scale did drift down 3 divisions over several hours. I closed the window later and reading came back to within .02GN in a couple hours. I rezeroed the pan and everything was back to normal and got the same reading 100% of the time.

My settings are Mode= "fast", Stability= "0" or "1", and the Zero Drift= "3".

 

[Richard Coody]

I hope all of my problems will help someone else. I appreciate all the help and replies. I think a large portion of the problems with the scale was in the electrical feed. I had some cheap ferrite chokes on the power cord. They seemed worthless. Someone suggested these (Fair-Rite RCT-2 Ferrite Bead)so I ordered 2 and saw an immediate change. Can't say for sure if they helped, but the scale got a lot more stable as soon as I installed them. I followed the instruction here. (http://www.oldwillknottscales.com/how-to-install-a-ferrite-bead.html)

The line conditioner seemed to help and so did adding another filter to the rear, (a Tripplite 2 outlet box). These both are suppose to filter EMI and RFI AC Noise. Maybe both together added more filtering. I tried all combinations and it seem this was the best.

When you get yours, allow it to warm to room temperature, then calibrate. These are very sensitive to being exactly level and to any air movement and to changes in temperature and barometric pressure.

For the last 6 days mine has been very stable. I used a couple weights to check and they weighed exactly the same nearly 100% of the time. I left it sit all night with weight on it and all night with the powder pan off showing a negative weight. Nothing changed. Put the weights back on and it showed the same readings. Yesterday a storm was coming in so I opened the window and allowed the conditions to change. The barometer went from 30.05 to 29.40 and the temp from 75 to 66 degrees. The scale did drift down 3 divisions over several hours. I closed the window later and reading came back to within .02GN in a couple hours. I rezeroed the pan and everything was back to normal and got the same reading 100% of the time.

My settings are Mode= "fast", Stability= "0" or "1", and the Zero Drift= "3".

Thanks

Reading this has given me some insight in what to expect and what to look out for. The line conditioner was a direct result of.this thread.

 

[spclark]

The LC1200 I ordered arrived yesterday, got plugged into my APC back-up/surge arrestor upon arrival. A&D's adapter's plugged into the LC120.

We'll see what happens.

That LC cost about half an 8-pounder's worth of my favorite propellant.

I've just opened my second jug for this year so I won't be missing much even if nothing changes significantly in my loading protocol.

 

[T-shooter]

The LC1200 I ordered arrived yesterday, got plugged into my APC back-up/surge arrestor upon arrival. A&D's adapter's plugged into the LC120.

We'll see what happens.

That LC cost about half an 8-pounder's worth of my favorite propellant.

I've just opened my second jug for this year so I won't be missing much even if nothing changes significantly in my loading protocol.

Let us know how it works for you. A tech at Tripplite answered my question with this answer:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for your inquiry. Our recommended installations for the LC1200 and ISOBAR are as follows:

wall outlet -> LC1200 -> application
wall outlet -> ISOBAR -> application

Plugging one surge suppressor into another can only create problems, it doesn't make either device more effective.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If it doesn't work to expectations try it plugged in separately. Mine seems to be better with both.

 

[T-shooter]

Just when I thought my troubles were over it's acting up again. The scale has been near perfect for a week. I think today it may be due to electrical supply issues. It worked fine this morning and to mid afternoon. Then started hunting for a reading. During this time the line conditioner clicked 3 times, (same sound as turning it off or on). The only other times it's done it is when the wife plugged a vacuum into the same circuit and turned it on. So probably nothing to do with the scale. It the past 2 hours (3:30 to 5:30 pm) I turned it off and on, re-calibrated, and tried to reset and zero the powder pan. The scale will read .02 GN high after zeroing the pan. and it's having trouble settling on an exact weight. After not being to get the same positive and negative weight readings as before after a dozen tries resetting, in the last few minutes it seems to be working somewhat better again. It will settle on .02GN higher (on Fast mode) and after 5 to 7 seconds, drop down to the correct reading. I'll give it some time before I try to finish reloading.

I'm not familiar enough to know if the Tripplite LC1200 makes a sound any time there is a voltage problem. Any other time, the normal condition lights are on showing a good current.

 

[hrlincoln]

I also have an LC1200...it will make a clicking sound, and the LED lights will change to indicate condition (hi/lo) when it trims or boosts voltage.

 

[T-shooter]

I also have an LC1200...it will make a clicking sound, and the LED lights will change to indicate condition (hi/lo) when it trims or boosts voltage.

It clicked 3 times over a period of 2 hours. Never got to see the lights but I'm sure they did flash. The scale became progressively more stable over the course of the next 2 hours after it was acting up. Seems normal now. I'm sure it was electrical but I have no idea as to what exactly.