FX-120i, FX-200i, FX-300i Problems

[USMCDOC]

You said you drop powder through the top.

No.. i drop the first scoop into the pan as the pan sits on the side of the scale while it is resting on the marble.. then i place the powder pan onto the scale and then trickle the rest through the top.. with the powder pan already having the main portion of the powder charge in the pan, you don't have to worry about the powder being trickled into it bouncing out of the powder pan.

 

[jlow]

One thing to keep in mind is when a scale is sensitive enough to read down to the 0.02 grain level, it is going to be affected by vibration. I know that the OP has taken some precautions but if you look at how our laboratory scales are setup in the lab, they sit on a huge piece of marble, probably at least a couple hundred pounds in weight and the legs are also marble so adds up to easily over 500 pounds.

If your house is located close to any road, you are going to get vibrations. I still remember an apartment I lived in when I first got started which was about 100 yards from a highway and every time a semi went over an expansion joint on the highway, that thump, thump, I could feel the vibration in the house. That of course is extreme vibration but I could imagine that even something 10% of that would throw the balance off by 0.02 grain....

 

[T-shooter]

One thing to keep in mind is when a scale is sensitive enough to read down to the 0.02 grain level, it is going to be affected by vibration. I know that the OP has taken some precautions but if you look at how our laboratory scales are setup in the lab, they sit on a huge piece of marble, probably at least a couple hundred pounds in weight and the legs are also marble so adds up to easily over 500 pounds.

If your house is located close to any road, you are going to get vibrations. I still remember an apartment I lived in when I first got started which was about 100 yards from a highway and every time a semi went over an expansion joint on the highway, that thump, thump, I could feel the vibration in the house. That of course is extreme vibration but I could imagine that even something 10% of that would throw the balance off by 0.02 grain....

I live on a country road and there are maybe 3-4 cars an hour that pass. I'm 60 yards from the road. I can pound on the desk with my fist pretty hard and the scale doesn't move. I'm going to wait until I get the parts for the small diameter weighing platform. Should be here by Tuesday evening. That probably won't cure the existing problem but should make it more stable when breeze shield is open, much less surface for any air movement to work on. I'll post pictures and weights of the parts & modifications then.

 

[jlow]

I live on a country road and there are maybe 3-4 cars an hour that pass. I'm 60 yards from the road. I can pound on the desk with my fist pretty hard and the scale doesn't move. I'm going to wait until I get the parts for the small diameter weighing platform. Should be here by Tuesday evening. That probably won't cure the existing problem but should make it more stable when breeze shield is open, much less surface for any air movement to work on. I'll post pictures and weights of the parts & modifications then.

I understand that you may be skeptical about vibration as your desk pounding appeared to have no effect, but there are distinct types of vibration and they can have different effect. Pounding would be a sharp vibration but vibration can have different frequencies and so from that standpoint affect different things which may resonate with it. This is the reason why a loud sound may not cause a glass to crack but a lower level sound with the right frequency will crack the glass. Not saying vibration is definitely your problem but I would not dismiss it too easily.

 

[T-shooter]

I understand that you may be skeptical about vibration as your desk pounding appeared to have no effect, but there are distinct types of vibration and they can have different effect. Pounding would be a sharp vibration but vibration can have different frequencies and so from that standpoint affect different things which may resonate with it. This is the reason why a loud sound may not cause a glass to crack but a lower level sound with the right frequency will crack the glass. Not saying vibration is definitely your problem but I would not dismiss it too easily.

It's possible that there are vibrations deep in the ground that are undetectable. I do have an anti-vibration pad under it if that actually does anything. I just installed 2 of the OldWillKnottScales ferrite chokes on the power line. I double wrapped the cord through them as per the instructions online. The scale does seem better but it's hard to know if this is permanent. Time will tell. I turned it on cold and after 10 minutes put a weight on it. The scale did drift up .06 grains after a while. I left it on 10 hours and except for one 5 minute period (and not as bad as before), the reading never fluctuated. Tried it again yesterday after making the small diameter weighing platform and it seemed the same. 99% of the time is was stable, even with the stability set to zero. I did notice sometimes the stability indicator would flicker but the reading didn't change. Seems like before, it always did.

With the breeze shield partially open or all the way off, minor air movement doesn't change the reading now. I have no idea if I've cured anything yet. I'll just have to wait and see. It worked well a couple of times before and then would changed.

 

[T-shooter]

It's possible that there are vibrations deep in the ground that are undetectable. I do have an anti-vibration pad under it if that actually does anything. I just installed 2 of the OldWillKnottScales ferrite chokes on the power line. I double wrapped the cord through them as per the instructions online. The scale does seem better but it's hard to know if this is permanent. Time will tell. I turned it on cold and after 10 minutes put a weight on it. The scale did drift up .06 grains after a while. I left it on 10 hours and except for one 5 minute period (and not as bad as before), the reading never fluctuated. Tried it again yesterday after making the small diameter weighing platform and it seemed the same. 99% of the time is was stable, even with the stability set to zero. I did notice sometimes the stability indicator would flicker but the reading didn't change. Seems like before, it always did.

With the breeze shield partially open or all the way off, minor air movement doesn't change the reading now. I have no idea if I've cured anything yet. I'll just have to wait and see. It worked well a couple of times before and then would changed.

Tried reloading with the scale yesterday. At times it's rock steady and other times will fluctuate some, not as bad as it did earlier. I used a test weight and kept checking it every few loads. Out of maybe 100+ weighings, I had to reset the zero once because the negative weight when the powder pan was removed changed. The observed weight will usually bounce between 2 numbers and if I lift the pan off and set on again, many times it would settle on 2 different weights one division between them (.02GN) What I noticed is that every time this happened, the error was to the high side based on the test weight. So I set the pan on 2-3 times for each load and got readings, using the lower one if it varied.

Having owned two GemPro300's before this, makes me wonder if the A&D scales at 4X the price are worth it. If I can get the same reading most every time (even if it takes multiple tries) and I can also trickle into it, then maybe. The GemPro300 will almost always weigh +/- .02GN. The first scale needed taring/re-zeroing in between each weighing, the second didn't most of the time. On the second test here I got 2 readings .02GN over and 1 reading .02GN under the (+/- .02GN range) out of 125 weighings for a worse case of +/- .04GN. The zero was not reset on this test. Seems the mid-weight gets the most hits and the lightest one the least. Here are test.

I'll keep working with the A&D to see if I can tighten the accuracy and stop the floating readings. At this point I think it's an outside force of some sorts that I can't detect.

 

[rardoin]

Sounds to me like you need a line conditioner.

 

[T-shooter]

Sounds to me like you need a line conditioner.

Which do you think would be a decent one keeping cost in mind?

 

[rardoin]

Which do you think would be a decent one keeping cost in mind?

As I have mentioned in previous posts in this thread, I use a Tripplite LC 1800 but a 1200 would likely do just as well and be cheaper.

Here is a link: https://www.tripplite.com/products/power-conditioners~23

I bought my 1800 off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000514G8/?tag=accuratescom-20

It is also a surge protector that absorbs more voltage spike than an average power strip but nothing, at least not affordable, would absorb the Joules of energy in a lightening strike...even remote on the power line...so I unplug my balance after each session to preserve my investment.

 

[T-shooter]

As I have mentioned in previous posts in this thread, I use a Tripplite LC 1800 but a 1200 would likely do just as well and be cheaper.

Here is a link: https://www.tripplite.com/products/power-conditioners~23

I bought my 1800 off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000514G8/?tag=accuratescom-20

It is also a surge protector that absorbs more voltage spike than an average power strip but nothing, at least not affordable, would absorb the Joules of energy in a lightening strike...even remote on the power line...so I unplug my balance after each session to preserve my investment.

Thanks. I ordered an LC1200 from NewEgg Hope it helps. I don't know what else to try and the fluctuating reading comes and goes, usually worse through the middle of the day. So far I have tried:

* Anti-static pad
* Anti-static wrist strap
* Anti-vibration pad
* A Tripp Lite Isobar ISOBLOK2-0 two outlet surge suppressor
* 2 of the OldWillKnottScales ferrite line filters
* Grounded everything to earth ground
* Made a small diameter 2.75" weighing platform
* And now the line conditioner

Nothing else to try that I know of. If this doesn't work I may need to find a new hobby!

 

[nmjwolf]

There could be something wrong with the drive circuit in the scale...do you have warranty left?

 

[T-shooter]

There could be something wrong with the drive circuit in the scale...do you have warranty left?

Yes, it's only about 1 month old. What symptoms would I see specific to this if it were causing the scale to act up?

 

[spclark]

...the fluctuating reading comes and goes, usually worse through the middle of the day.

That's pretty strong evidence it's power line instability right there.

I had exactly the same experience with a Denver Instruments MMX-123 my A&D 120i replaced last year, not only where I live now (as of early 2014) but also where I used the MMX for three years before moving away.

I still see a little fluctuation with the 120i, only around 3-6 PM weekdays, about 1% what I saw with that MMX.

Let us all know please how the conditioner affects use of your scale please! I prefer to spend my 'disposable income' mostly on components but a conditioner just might get the nod if your's helps you get past this issue.

 

[Jet]

T-Shooter

If this suggestion has been offered please ignore but I didn't see it. Is there a local competitor in your area that has FX-120 that you could use for a couple hours to see if the other scale replicates your problem? If not, the next time you go on a trip or to a friends home bring it and your loading supplies and see if it acts up in the other location.

Good Shooting

Rich

 

[T-shooter]

That's pretty strong evidence it's power line instability right there.

I had exactly the same experience with a Denver Instruments MMX-123 my A&D 120i replaced last year, not only where I live now (as of early 2014) but also where I used the MMX for three years before moving away.

I still see a little fluctuation with the 120i, only around 3-6 PM weekdays, about 1% what I saw with that MMX.

Let us all know please how the conditioner affects use of your scale please! I prefer to spend my 'disposable income' mostly on components but a conditioner just might get the nod if your's helps you get past this issue.

I don't want to spend more on this either but I don't need a $600 paper weight. I should have it by next Tuesday or Wednesday. I'll post the results.

 

[T-shooter]

As I have mentioned in previous posts in this thread, I use a Tripplite LC 1800 but a 1200 would likely do just as well and be cheaper.

Here is a link: https://www.tripplite.com/products/power-conditioners~23

I bought my 1800 off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000514G8/?tag=accuratescom-20

It is also a surge protector that absorbs more voltage spike than an average power strip but nothing, at least not affordable, would absorb the Joules of energy in a lightening strike...even remote on the power line...so I unplug my balance after each session to preserve my investment.

Received the LC1200 today. Had a little fluctuation at first but I had the scale off due to a thunderstorm earlier so it was not up to temperature. According to the instructions, you can plug it into one of their surge protectors and I already had a Tripp Lite Isobar ISOBLOK2-0. So I tried, that figuring it may add a little more noise suppression in the electric line. The scale seemed to settle down for a while and then started to bounce between 2 readings. Had the idea that what it's reading may be on the borderline between 2 increments due to a slight bit of drift. Leaving the breeze brake on, I dropped 2 pieces of table salt into the pan and it quit. 50 pieces of salt weighed .2gn. Those weigh less than .02gn so may be enough to push it over to the next weight reading. It rounds the readings off to the nearest .02gn and as the weight in the pan increases, at some point has to go to the next increment. I think it's this point that is what I am seeing. So far I have yet to see the LC1200 change it's readings on the LCD's or try to correct the voltage. It's been 100% quite but does discharge some heat from the top. When the FX300i is stabile, I can pick up and set down the pan and it settles right back down. I'm going to play with it over the weekend to see if I fixed anything or just blew some more money for nothing.

 

[spclark]

Yep, you're seeing the inherent difficulties resolving divisions in weight when a digital scale has to 'decide' where it needs to draw the line.

Use an analogue scale, it's up to you!

What are your typical charge weights anyway?

With 20 grains, 0.02 gn = 0.1%.
With 40 grains, that same fraction = 0.05%
With 60 grains it's 0.03%

Change to grams (milligrams, actually) it's:

0.001 g of 1.295 g = 0.077%
of 2.592 g it's 0.038%
of 3.888 g it's 0.025%

Rounding errors are a fact of life. If you can get comfortable with using milligrams (what these scales use as a native unit of measure) instead of grains, you increase accuracy.

Whether you can consistently see what a variation of 0.1% in case charge weight has on paper, against a background of all the other variables affecting shot impact consistency, remains the question.

I doubt it helps you any to know I ordered an LC 1200 today

And I've started weighing primers too... in milligrams.

Too soon to tell but I think I can see it helping improve my scores.

 

[KenOath]

T-Shooter

If this suggestion has been offered please ignore but I didn't see it. Is there a local competitor in your area that has FX-120 that you could use for a couple hours to see if the other scale replicates your problem? If not, the next time you go on a trip or to a friends home bring it and your loading supplies and see if it acts up in the other location.

Good Shooting

Rich

^^^ This suggestion makes sense to me, or send it back to where you purchased it and have them test against another same scale. My AnD has worked spot on since day one through winter and summer. My 2c

Cheers Rushty

 

[T-shooter]

Yep, you're seeing the inherent difficulties resolving divisions in weight when a digital scale has to 'decide' where it needs to draw the line.

Use an analogue scale, it's up to you!

What are your typical charge weights anyway?

With 20 grains, 0.02 gn = 0.1%.
With 40 grains, that same fraction = 0.05%
With 60 grains it's 0.03%

Change to grams (milligrams, actually) it's:

0.001 g of 1.295 g = 0.077%
of 2.592 g it's 0.038%
of 3.888 g it's 0.025%

Rounding errors are a fact of life. If you can get comfortable with using milligrams (what these scales use as a native unit of measure) instead of grains, you increase accuracy.

Whether you can consistently see what a variation of 0.1% in case charge weight has on paper, against a background of all the other variables affecting shot impact consistency, remains the question.

I doubt it helps you any to know I ordered an LC 1200 today

And I've started weighing primers too... in milligrams.

Too soon to tell but I think I can see it helping improve my scores.

I've had a Lyman and a Hornady beam scale. No matter how careful I was, they were both inconsistent. The Hornady would read 3/10 difference depending upon where the pivot was sitting in relation to the front of the scale. I have no idea why. And both scales wouldn't necessarily settle on the zero mark every time.

What electronic scale/balance are you using and your opinion of it's performance?

Charge weights I use are usually 45 grains or under. I've tried using milligrams and converting but it hasn't seemed to help. One division is .0001 gram which should equal 0.00154 grains. Hope your LC1200 helps whatever issue you are having. It's suppose to show on the LED's if the voltage varies. So far this hasn't so it must be within the limits. Too son to tell. I did install 2 of the OldWillKnott ferrite chokes on the power cord and double wrapped them according to their video. That did seems to help some.

I believe everything you can control has to help to some degree. Certainly can't hurt except for the time factor. I haven't got to shoot much this year. Wind & back problems. I have a 250 yard range across the road. It's in a corn field and after it gets tall enough, I'll have a good wind break on each side.

 

[spclark]

I wasn't suggesting you switch to a beam scale, I was looking to infer that using one puts the responsibility of deciding just where the pointer reads when you're happy on you rather than trusting firmware to make that decision for you.

I started this journey with an RCBS 5-0-5 years ago. First upgrade was to a Dillon D-terminator (not the current model) which was awful on AC adapter or batteries, so I gave it away.

Then came a Lyman DPS 1200 (Gen 1) which I still have... in the original box. It worked OK but for the cleaning required after a charging session.

Somewhere along the line I bought a Harrell's thrower to get bulk charges out quick that then got 'finished' by whatever means I was using at the time. Still have it, still use it regularly, still works fine.

Bought a Denver Instruments MMX-123 after the Dillon. Trickled up using a primed 308 or 6XC case until the original Omega trickler appeared. Buying THAT was a revelation!

Then Adam's auto trickler appeared last year kindling such rave reviews I decided to spend the $$$ necessary to acquire the least costly scale it'd work with, an A&D FX120i.

Talk about revelations....

I'd dreamed of maybe 'leasing' a Prometheus but'd rather spend what $$$$ I have on components, or barrels.

Heard tell of something called a Gundersen but they're as rare as the Sasquatch.

With the 120i I can charge & seat 50 Palma rounds in 29 minutes easy, to an accuracy of +/- 0.002 grams. Most are right on the mark, but as I shoot sling & irons & my 1,000 yd. X-ring's 10" in dia., that spread seems to be 'good enough' for now.

I'm adding the LC1200 for the teensy bit of uncertainty I see during two distinct daytime intervals when I suspect folks on my AC grid are preparing meals....