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Formula BR? Smart Idea or Not?

Factory classes are a failure everywhere simply because you can buy a factory Sako TRG put Badgers and a Nightforce on it and have a $4500 factory rifle. There are the Coopers, the new Savages, the 40X.....what exactly is a factory rifle? Factory classes are a Match Directors nightmare. The "have not's" are always bitching about the "Haves" because they claim an unfair advantage. So what do you do?

I agree with Mikecr to a point. Sometimes I think the old days of "Run what you brung" are the best. Sure I knew guys with 427 Vettes and Shelby GT 500's but I had a modified small block 327 350 horse 67 Nova that would give them a run for their money. Same goes for Rifles "Joe Blow" may have the latest Bat action, etc. but that dosen't mean the guy with the Remington won't out shoot him. There will always be somebody with all kinds of money available to buy the best of the best. You just have to go with what you can and try to make the best of it.

Danny
 
Rambling and disjointed thoughts on the subject at hand...

Just out of curiosity, how many ranges are there that have all the distances that your proposed formula calls for, that is, with covered, benched firing lines?

Try this. Go to a public range that is set up for shooting at distances beyond 100 yd., and tally the percentages of shooters that use the various distances. In my experience, the fall off at longer distances, particularly at times of year other than the fall sighting-in rush, is marked.

Another thing, the bullets and twists that are competitive at the longer distances are not the usual for varmint shooting, and the maximum weight would make such a rifle unsuitable for game hunting. Limits on the rifle build would tend to make the rifle less competitive in existing bench classes, so what you would end up with are rifles that were only truly suitable for the new formula, a bit of a risk come time to resell.

Wilbur Harris, a regional director of the NBRSA who runs Benchrest Central, has put together a complete loaner rifle and loading kit to allow those who want to try Benchrest a way to do so without having to spend any serious cash. I would be surprised if it is in use all, or even most of the time.

If you talk to gunsmiths that are well known for the Benchrest rifles that they build, I think that you will find that they have numerous customers that have rifles built that cost just as much as a competition rifle, but which are not used in competition.

I have friends that fall into this category. The simple truth is that they don't want to compete. Although they enjoy having top level equipment, they would rather enjoy it in their own way, free of the requirements of formal competition. I think that this is the reason that more people don't compete, not the cost of equipment.

There are numerous used Benchrest rifles for sale, that, with a new barrel would make good starter rifles at a lower cost than a new rifle built to the proposed formula.

A few weeks back I helped a friend sort out a clean HV 6PPC based on a Shilen DGA action. All he had to put on it was a Burris 8 x 32 variable,which impressed me with its performance). We loaded with my equipment at the range. Within 45 minutes, I was able to work up a load that printed three shots under .2. He was able to do this as well, with me calling the wind. In my opinion the rifle would be very competitive for 1-200 yd. Benchrest. He does not intend to compete. Like most who do not, the reason is not the cost of equipment.

The hardest part of creating a new class of Benchrest will be getting someone to commit to putting on the first series of matches. This will be a "chicken and egg" situation, with the need for a viable number of committed shooters to make the match planning worthwhile, and a serious commitment to putting on a season of matches needed to justify the cost of a new rifle build. Add to this that matches compete with each other and non-match shooters for range time, and you have a task that is much more difficult than building a rifle.

If you count those who have built ranges, and those who run matches, nationwide, you will have a small elite group that are at the core of the existence of shooting and shooting sports. Few understand, or even care to know about the effort that it takes to do either. Building rifles is the easy part.

The next time that you use a range, or participate in a match, you might think about learning the history of how the range came into being, or about what is involved in putting on the match, and take the time to thank those who have done the work, and spent the money...and offer to help with the chores.
 
Regardless of what rules or classes you have in place, any form of competition requires dedication, time and money. Lots of people aren't ABLE to put these 3 things into it, and the others that CAN, won't. The biggest reason in my mind that people won't compete is a fear of losing. Very few people have what it takes to turn failure into motivation, probably because the motivation is not there in the first place. It takes a love for the sport, a strong desire to succeed, and everlasting commitment to a goal they may never reach. The top competitors have the 'right stuff' when it comes to succeeding. Look at Michael Schumacher, Valentino Rossi, Tommy Makkinen, Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Tony Boyer, Mike Ratigan and the list goes on. These guys are above and beyond in natural talent. They are true 'professionals'.
 
That's right. You want the right people competing.
Maybe those that don't shoot good enough, that don't have the right stuff, or will not benefit from it, shouldn't be competing.
It's not the end of the world.
Instead of pandering to them, you might 'qualify' them as in NASCAR, or the PGA, to ensure winners -really are.

As boyd said, it isn't as simple as money or equipment.
And that's why this mob, right here, will not come to a consesus.

By the way, I am not qualified to compete, by my standards.
 
Funny thing is I'm on the outside looking in to get started. I've read this thread and the proposed rifle sounds just like what I have plans to build to keep within my retired budget. Personally I'll be happy shooting against more expensive rifles and if I can one up them I've done something. There's also a more expensive route if I decide to go there in the future. It's like being a child with everything new in the future. If I know that everyone drives a Chevrolet and I'll drive a Chevrolet when I'm grown it takes some of the wonder out of it. I like the regulations that specify I have to shoot a rifle under 17 lbs. without a lot more restrictions. I have the freedom to tinker and build what I envision to be the best and that's what I think this sport is about. If I have to shoot a box stock class rifle I'd rather compete with myself at my home range. These are just my thoughts from someone looking in and getting started.
 
I too agree with Boyd, and I myself may fall into that class of folks for whom he speaks. I have several rifles built each year, but almost of my competition is done at informal or non-registered events.

While I find the whole concept quite intriguing, I have a couple other thoughts. While I would agree with your part's list pricing, what about the cost to ship all these components to the builder? And what about the builder's cost for putting the rifle's together?

Since the idea is not to compete with what's already established, but rather to put everyone on the same playing field, why not talk to a rifle manufacturer?

Since the new Savage action was talked about as a candidate, why not see if they wouldn't chamber a 6BR? Cooper already does, so they would be another possibility. Sure these two examples aren't using Stiller actions and Krieger barrels, but if all the rifles are built the same, would that not meet the intended requirement? Also, either of the above options would come in under your estimated figure, and the rifle is already assembled.

Respectfully,
Mike
 
Mike, I think it makes sense to talk to Cooper, and certainly to Remington. Since many people think a Rem 700 style action is the way to go, if Remington could build its actions good enough to start with, and fit a premium after-market barrel, that just might work. I think it would be great if a "Formula BR" rifle appeared in Remington's line-up, PROVIDED the quality is there.

I think the reason many of us are reluctant to go with ANY factory rifle is the possibility of funky actions and inconsistent barrels with inconsistent chambers. By going to the $1500 mark and allowing something like a Predator Action and hand-lapped barrel with a smith-cut chamber, you get to a level of consistent high performance.

Possibly Cooper could pull this off. I'm not so optimistic about Remington.

--------------

To put things in perspective...

#1 There are tens of millions of Americans who like to go to the range and shoot rifles. The vast majority of them sit at a bench when they do so.

#2 The overwhelming majority of recreational shooters who shoot from the bench currently use rifles and rests that are not particularly well-suited for the task.,Narrow fore-ends, light flexy barrels, heavy triggers, low-power optics).

#3 Many, many of those tens of millions would probably have a better experience with a low-recoil, high-accuracy rifle optimized for the bench--that was also affordable.

#4 All the factors that weigh in favor of one-design controls for service rifle matches also apply to bench rifles as well, and since shooting-from-the-bench is the most common form of rifle range activity, one really has to wonder why the concept hasn't been widely adopted.

#5 Uniformity of equipment is not necessarily contrary to the spirit of competition. That's why there are standardized sizes of basketballs and softballs, and why bowling leagues use uniform pins and lane sizes.
 
I suppose I qualify as one of those "Competitors" that we are all talking about. I take Competitive Benchrest very seriously, and spend a lot of time, effort, and yes, money, pursuing this endeavor. Over on Benchrest.com, we refer to what we do in the Competitve Arena as Benchrest, with a capitol "B".
Fifteen years ago, I was in the exact same position as many of the responders to this thread. I thought "PPC" stood for "POLICE PROFICIENCY COURSE". I had no idea of the skill and level of dedication it would take to sooner, or later, be competitive.
But, I still jumped into the deep end, and learned. It took me about two years to figure out that the wind does indeed push bullets around, what the most accurate chamberings were, what the word "precision" really meant in terms of Rifle performance, what "agging capability" meant, and most of all, how to compete.
The problem that most of the responders have to this thread is that they have never been to a real Registered Benchrest Match. They have no idea of the logistics involved in putting on a Two Gun Event for an entire week end, how everything is orchestrated to get every relay finished at a specific time, while adhering to the rules of the Sanctioning Body.
I have said this over on Benchrest.com, and will say it here. What you are proposing belongs in what we call the "club match format". These are informal matches that give shooters a chance to compete, while not having to worry about all of the regulations that are neccessary when shooting in Sanctioned Registered Competition.
Here in Texas, The New Braunfels Club, The Denton Club, The Midland Club, and others have excellent club match programs, where shooters can show up, shoot in a "match environment", with what ever they have, and learn if Benchrest is really what they wish to pursue. Many shooters love to shoot, but dislike the Competitive Nature that permiates Registered Match Competition.
This is quite similar to the NHRA bracket classes, or the typical "Wednesday Night Format". Racers get to compete, go fast, and enjoy the thrill without all of the hassle involved in the strict structure of the Regional and National Events, where even the "stock" classes require big cash, lots of dedication, and a very competitive attitude.........jackie
 
What are the feelings of some of the officers of IBS,NBRSA,Williamsport,NRA, etc. etc. who monitor this board? Do you support the idea yea, or nay?
Without the support of the above named organizations this idea is dead in the water from the git go.
If we do not hear from them then we can only surmise they will not support the idea.

Danny
 
Another consideration is that a lot of us around the world do not have access to all that is available in the USA and to keep things on an even field keep restrictions to a minimum such as weight and chamber also width of forend in other words 3inch forend make a pettern for the shape of the stock so that it can be made by anyone in any material as long as the whole rifle comes in under the weight limit.And chambered in what ever is decided on be it 6BR, 6x47L, 6.5x47L that way people can decide on Action, Barrel and twist, Scope etc sure some people will spend a lot but if you have restriction on weight and the cartridge most will come down to Skill of the shooter to read conditions and drive the rifle and the care they take in reloading.
Well thats my 2 bobs worth anyway.
 
Well, I'm seeing a lot of reasons why a starter class wouldn't work ranging from turf conflicts between the organizing bodies to "it ain't benchrest". Well, one of the sanctioning bodies needs to step up and promulgate baseline rules for matches to be held a a club level. Make the rules such that the rifle is portable from club to club.

First off, take a page from the Palma boys and make it a .308 class. While there might be 6mmBr factory ammunition available, I've never seen any in any of my local shops. And it could even be restricted to a single bullet weight or even a single bullet. Something in the say 175 range. I have seen FGM and Black Hills in my local shops. No reason not to allow handloads either. Allowing the load to be tuned to the rifle rather than the rifle tuned to the load would save considerable money for the beginnin competitor.

No reason not to spec a scope either. Sightron makes a decent scope for the money and as a smaller company they might be interested in the use of one model of their scope for a spec class. Say 24X on top.

Since it is a spec class there is no reason not to limit the list of approved makers either. Yeah, I can go out and buy a single shot Cooper or even one of the Euro rifles for a fair amount of money. Make it Remington/Savage/Howa as a baseline. No bolt sleeves. No Jewel or Kelbly triggers. Maybe even have a minimum trigger pull weight. Maybe a functioning safety.

Make it a score match. No extra equipment required other than target stands to run a match. Some of the existing "standard" targets from one organization or another could be used.

By the way, I like the idea that the rifle would have to chamber a standardized dummy round, say a minimum SAAMI chamber.

I would point out that over on Benchrest Central one of the better known folks posted a thread about a tactical match he observed in California where they were turning away entrants for a match. Lots of entrants. Younger guys. Well, if ya'll want to attract those shooters ya gotta make the sport attractive to them. Oh yeah, one thing that makes shooting attractive to a new shooter is a generous round count. Maybe multiple ten round strings.

It's nice to have a home for the bleeding high end of the sport, and it's nice for some folks to have jumped right in, but that isn't most folks. To use the NASCAR anology, nope, I'm not going to be doing any NASCAR racing anytime soon since I haven't seen any rear wheel drive cast iron block pushrod carberated V-8 Ford 500s on the showroom floor as of late. Looking to the SCCA though, I have seen a lot of Mazda Miatas and Honda Civics. I notice there are a lot more folks racing SCCA out of their attached two car garages than racing NASCAR.
 
I agree with what Jackie said above. What is the driving force to start this? if its to bring out new shooters, that is good! if its for all competitors, that would be a downfall in my mind. I as well think that it would work fine for a club level event. I try to perfect my game in each way for results, the money that I have involved to my sport would become worth nothing, if my equipment was not legal, I take my sport seriously and try to improve all the time. The way I see this formula br would not be good for me. I like NBRSA, I Know nothing about IBS or Williamsport, but they all have a solid following group in thier respective areas and that will be hard to change. Ron Tilley
 
A very interesting concept but anytime you 'restrict' equipment, your admin goes through the roof.

NASCAR has an enormous body of inspectors and gidgets to make sure of the 'level playing field'. Shooting events are busy enough for the few that do everything. Weighing, measuring, inspecting just adds to their work load.

If they don't, creative shooters will quickly destroy the class.

I agree that we need to help more shooters enjoy our competition sport so how about something completely different - a handicap system.

Like Golf, anyone with a proper handicap can compete with any other golfer with a proper handicap and they should end up with a tie. yes, theoretically, I can tie Mr. Woods on any golf course where I can shoot my handicap.

Now we have a way of leveling the playing field. Shooters would compete under their desired governing rules with two scoring systems - gross or actual score, and net or gross minus handicap score.

This works very well for score shooting events like F class.

This form of scoring has helped propel golf to the masses. It has helped the novice see they are improving and also stand a chance at the shiney stuff on the tables.

It doesn't take anything away from the top participants,no handicap) as they are after the actual score win anyways. In fact, it really makes the top participants improve their game when viewed from the net scoring. Tough to play with a high handicap golfer that is playing to their handicap or better.

All that would be needed would be for all shooters to compete in a few matches to determine their average scores. Work out a handicap system for these shooters. That handicap value would be applied to following events.

If the shooters does better or worse then their handicap, their handicap is adjusted accordingly after so many matches. The format would easily be adapted from golf.

One step further, it will allow factory rifles to compete with full meal deal rigs. Let's say a factory rifle/shooter averages a score of 195 out of 200 thus has a handicap of 5 shots. He shoots against a 'zero' handicap shooter. That 'pro' shooter better not drop any points or else he would loose on a net score basis.

If the handicapped shooter did a 195 or 196 and the pro did a 199, on a net score bases, the handicapped shooter would win. The pro still won on a true score basis and would be recognised as such.

For 'sandbagging' shooters, there would be a 'break out' value where the shooter would loose handicap values if they shot well out of their expected range.

Simple...

Jerry
 
The reason that I didn't respond to your on-line survey about the proposed class of competition being discussed in this thread, is that it lacked an appropriate response for my situation. I already compete, and am happy where I am, and do not wish to devote additional time and money to another type of competition. Also, it seems to me that the only meaningful measure of support for such an endeavor would be signing up for the first match, but since no one has said that he or she would put on such a match if enough people signed up, the whole exercise seems a bit theoretical at this juncture. It seems to me that finding a place, convenient to the largest possible number of potential competitors, that will allow matches of this sort, would be a good place to start taking the pie out of the sky, as it were. Without the prospect of a place to actually hold such a match all other planning would seem to be premature, and if one cannot be managed, what is the use of discussing a whole system of such matches?
 
Boyd,

The point isn't to host separate matches exclusively for a new tightly-spec'd class of rifle--though that eventually might take place. If you had a gun that complied with the design criteria we've discussed,< 16.5 lbs., 3" fore-end), you could compete in all sorts of matches RIGHT NOW, including the IBS-sanctioned 600-yard Nationals running in South Dakota this very weekend.

You could also shoot it in every F-Class match in the country, at the Varmint Jamboree, the Hickory Egg-Shoot Match, Williamsport, IBS 600-yard matches, and countless "Club shoots" that are being held every weekend, including monthly matches in Sacramento, Ojai etc.--not that far away from you.

Just because we are proposing that a tightly-controlled Class be created, doesn't mean new matches have to be created for that class initially before someone can use the gun. T'ain't so.

Eventually, if there were enough participants, perhaps separate prizes/awards would be given to those who shoot with a qualifying one-design rifle--just as F-TR is separately recognized in current F-Class competition, or "Factory class" gets its own trophies at the Varmint Jamboree.

But I don't think its correct to suggest discussion of the class is premature because there are no matches to go to yet. That's really not true at all.

- - - -

On a separate matter. I'm honestly surprised that this notion of a "same equipment class for guys who sit down when they shoot" is considered so radical or impractical by some,this is not directed to Boyd's comment).

I was discussing this with German Salazar, a top prone shooter, recent All-American Smallbore Champ and moderator of ShootersJournal.com . He said: "First, what do you think is the most popular position/prone shooting discipline... BY FAR? It's Service Rifle. Yep, a one-design class essentially, though minor modifications are allowed."

German continued: "Next point--while I prefer prone shooting, the reality is--you know it and I know it--that most American rifle shooters, BY FAR, prefer shooting from a bench."

"OK then, what you are really proposing is simply creating a discipline like service rifle, only with a gun that is optimized for bench shooters. Seems pretty logical to me and something that should have been done a long time ago ..."

What German is saying is that: #1 We know the one-design concept can work, that is demonstrated by the success of Service Rifle, Garand matches, even GSSF,Glock) matches. #2 Applying the concept to shooting from the Bench,as opposed to standing/sitting) is logical given the fact that most rifle shooters in this country like to shoot that way.

German also felt that the class should not be limited to one particular custom action because then you have availability issues. His answer was: "Make it a Rem 700 action. But you've got to allow 'trued' actions because it would be impossible to police them out. This allows a guy to get started with a low-cost, readily available action and then upgrade as he goes. Perhaps even Remington would produce the whole gun--Now that's an idea. If Remington built the whole gun, like Savage is doing with the F-Class rifle, then you have a big sponsor right from the get-go. Do allow folks to upgrade to an after-market barrel later--that's commonly done in Service rifle and it hasn't hurt anything. But it would be ideal if a shooter could go to a dealer and order a 'Formula BR' rifle,preferrably an 8-twist 6BR) right from Remington."
 
Then put on a match...and see how many come. Wouldn't that be the ultimate rebuttal? As it stands, Benchrest is mostly populated by shooters who enjoy looking for an equipment edge.

I contend that there are plenty of opportunities for those who want to compete. It is my opinion that those that choose not to compete do so primarily for reasons other than equipment cost, and that no set of rules will lure them into formal competition. Understand that this is not a criticism of their choice. For me, the chief purpose of any hobby is to have fun.

Years ago, when I was the president of a large gun club, that hosted many types of competition, a fellow wanted bullseye pistol matches. When I suggested to him that my plate was already quite full, but that I would be willing to give him some advice as to how he might get them started, he was gone almost as soon as the words came out of my mouth. This is pretty typical human behavior. It seems that most want "someone" to do something for them that they are not willing to do for themselves, even though they have the resources. This is why the list of those who have started new matches or built ranges is so short.

BTW, it seems to me that your "doing" for the rest of us, is this most excellent web site.
 
I contend that there are plenty of opportunities for those who want to compete. It is my opinion that those that choose not to compete do so primarily for reasons other than equipment cost, and that no set of rules will lure them into formal competition. Understand that this is not a criticism of their choice. For me, the chief purpose of any hobby is to have fun.

I've stayed off this thread because it's the same old redundant thread that gets lots of attention from a bunch of folks that never intend to compete in this "New Class" anyway. Boyd hit the nail on the head. To all of the shooters that think they need a new class to compete in BR, we already have it. Come on out to a match and bring your best varmint rifle. I can assure you the match director will let you shoot.
 
I tend to agree with Boyd. At our club one of our members, who is a personnel friend has at least three full race guns. A 6BR, 30BR, and PPC all have top of the line components, and Nightforce scopes. He doesn't like to shoot in any kind of competitions, including our fun shoots, because they are to much like a Match. He dosen't like the pressure and can't have any fun. He'd sooner just get together with some guys on an off day, shoot, and B.S. Nothing wrong with that. It's his choice, and I respect him for it.

Another member constantly complains of the clubs lack of a "Real" pistol range and matches. He is told all the time that the club will allow him to improve our existing pistol range and to allow him to hold matches. However, all he does is gripe. He wants someone else to do it for him so he can come and compete with his pistol but does not want to lift a finger to help.

Our Ground Hog Matches are put on by a handful of people. Club members shoot these matches, but when it comes time to go out and set targets, or mow the grass, they stand on the sidelines while the few work there asses off in ninety degree heat. I'm one of those "work their asses off guys" who put on the match and try to shoot one rifle to compete. Sure, I'd like to B.S. with everyone between relays, or shoot multiple guns, or just get five minutes to relax but that doesn't happen. Am I having fun? Well not like I used to that's for sure. I'm sixty years old, WHERE IN THE HELL ARE THE YOUNGER CLUB MEMBERS? Please excuse my french, and shouting, but you understand my frustration. I'd like to be able to enjoy myself too once and awhile.

Mifflins Ground hog Matches almost went down the tube this year because nobody wanted to take the Match Director position. Rod Morton who lives 3 1/2 hours away in another state stepped up and is doing it just to keep it going. Where the heck are the local club members who want to shoot? They would let it die instead of helping. Sad isn't it.

My point is it's always the overworked few that put on matches, and that's anywhere. So a new class would just be that one more straw that broke the camels back.

Danny
 
I know this has been refered to as NASCAR class and such. But really I think some of us have forgotten that CUP drivers start out in lower easier financed classes at their home tracks. Like the 4cyl class we have at our nearest track, or hobby stock class with minimal improvements allowed.
But in the end you can't make non-competitive people want to compete, it's not in their nature.
Now let's go back to the intent of what I think we are after:
1st: A single rifle class for 100-600yds maybe 1000yd competition and matches so setup that each weekend you can shoot a different yardage with the same gun if you choose.
2nd: And hopefully guns built to cost under $1500.00 w/o optics.
Problem no one can agree on class limitations.
Let's go from here: agree on the Initial requirements and goal and reverse engineer the class from there, if this is to become a reality.
Rory D.
 
dmoran said:
Rory ---

Questions for you:

Do you compete in any BR sanctioned events?
If so, which realm and sanctioning body?
If so, what is wrong with the existing gun rules to them?


Story for ya!!!

The first time I ever shot a F-Class match,20shots at 600, 900, 1000) I took a factory VLS 700 Rem in .243win with 105gr bullet handloads. I won!!! Had $560 into that rifle plus a $250 scope.

First time I went to a 100/200 BR match,NBRSA) I had just bought a used rifle,a sleeved XP100 Rem action glued into a "Hunter BR" stock) for $800. I put on a new $220 Shilen barrel and chambered it to 6PPC. Total cost with a $225 Swift scope = $1245. I finished 5th in HV at 100yards and shot the 2nd smallest group of the weekend,a .166").

My fist time at a 1000 Yard BR match was with that same factory VLS stock and action as above that had now been trued with a Shilen barrel chambered to .243Imp.. I won a Relay in HV Score. It was at a IBS 1000yd Nationals and I finished 26th over-all,from over 100 shooters).

I still use both these rifles today. The 6PPC sits just as it did as described above and will agg in the low 2's or better if the shooter does his job.
The .243 VLS has switched chamberings a couple times and is at present a 6Dasher in a Shehane Laminate BR stock. But it is that same old factory VLS that has been "hot rodded" and re-stocked.....

So what is more entry level then what I started with? and still shoot today?

I shoot right next to guys with much more expensive rifles,and against guys that have less in them). Some times I win ... some times not... But I always have fun !!!!
... and both guns are under $1250 each with 1 barrel and no scopes. And are capable and do win if I do my part!!!

I'm on a tight budget and can't afford some things. Do I want a full blown custom rig with all the bells and whistles??? Sure I do!!
Do I need one to compete?
Nope.... I have had good success and lot's of fun competing with my factory and modified Remmy's. But some day I will have a Cadillac or two.....


Happy Shooting
Donovan Moran

Are you guys paying attention?????????
 

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