Formula BR? Smart Idea or Not?

[Forum Boss]

Folks,

Check out today's Daily Bulletin. The lead topic renews our discussion of the possibility of a one-design class for Benchrest competition, NASCAR BR as it were. There is a link to our home page so you can vote on the idea--Yea or Nay.

The notion is a tightly controlled rifle that can be shot, in its own separate class, at all common BR distances, plus be used in Varmint matches and as a 16.5 lb light gun.

Specs would be tightly controlled, and my idea is that the whole gun, with premium custom hand-lapped barrel, would cost under $1500,before optics).

Here's how it could be done...

Rem 700 Clone action such as Stiller Predator: $695,group price)
MBR style stock, Fully inletted with pillars installed: $299
,See the SSS LR stock for Savages):

Link: http://www.sharpshootersupply.com/LRBR_Stock.html

Timney 6 oz. Trigger: $85 Street Price

Major Brand 27.55",700mm in length) HV barrel: $280
Contour similar to Krieger #17.

Total before optics and chambering: $1359.00

Total weight with scope and rings: 7.5 kg,16.5 lbs)

There may even be quantity discounts available on some of these components. Personally, I think it might be nice to bump the budget a bit and go with a Stiller Viper.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Forum Boss]

OPTICS
The optic choice would also be tightly restricted to keep costs under control. My thinking is to either specify something like a Sighton 36X or any variable with an MSRP under $500.00.

Another option would be the new Nikon 30mm 6-24x50, but it retails for $650.00, and only has 34MOA of internal vertical:

http://theopticzone.com/detail.aspx?ID=4224

 

[LRCampos]

I liked the idea and concept.

The beauty to have a Stiller Predator is that it has the same footprint of the Rem 700 actions, what helps in terms stock options.

On the stocks, it would be a good idea to have some 3 or 4 "approved" stocks. It would better suit shooters differences and help international shooters to import the stocks.

In regard to optics, it may not be a good idea that the limit factor is the street price: how international shooters could base on this? Which street price?
May be a better idea is to have some 3 or 4 "approved" scopes that a shooter could choose.

This way, we all would have the same rifle, but with little personal preferences,stock and optics), just like a NASCAR race where the cars are from only some shapes and brands.

 

[BHarvey]

Since the scope is the supposed 'weak' link in the equation, I would not want a limit on the scope.

Most BR rigs I see cost $3000 +/- anyway and most have a $1000 scope or less sitting on it.

So if you go with a $1500 rifle, that frees up some money for a better optic. Most shooters will tell you they don't 'see' a difference in a March or S&B and that they are not worth the money, so let them shoot the optic of their choice, since there is not a difference, optical or otherwise that makes a March or S&B better in any way!

 

[mikecr]

I think the concept departs from much of what competition is all about. Just as NASCAR has for the past 30yrs..
You're embracing mediocrity with this concept..

What of innovation, value, and character?
One man's wits, risk, and hard work, against the field..
His advances ultimately influencing the REAL world in positive ways.. "What man is a man who does not make the world better"?,Kingdom of Heaven)
What can be said about shooters seeking 'turn-key' competition?

Why submit to carburated pretend cars, when a 2007 vette could lap them with AC running?
No pit stops needed!

Don't you think we can, and should, continue to raise the bar in shooting?

 

[ReedG]

I've been a strong supporter of an entry-level class with tight restrictions for a long time. I don't think this is to be looked at as a replacement class for any existing BR competition. A person who can afford a $3,000 rifle has plenty of options about what to build and where to compete. This should be a price-limited class that will allow a person to shoot competitively, either as an introduction to organized shooting or as a "I'm happy at this level" class.

If people want to shoot Viper actions and NightForce scopes they already have plenty of options. I'd favor a price limit on the action and let the buyer choose his own. A new Savage action would be just as competitive as a 700-style custom. Limit the cost of the action to $500 and enforce it. Or go with a custom-built package and require everyone to use it with universal availability.

I am convinced there is a number of people who would shoot competitively if it could be done with less expense. I am willing to petition IBS to make a one-year allowance for a new class to include this rifle if we can come up with the specs for it.

NASCAR is less about racing today and more about entertainment, opening the sport up to many more fans, more funding and actually more competition. The "old" NASCAR we hear so much about today had guys winning races when they were the only car on the lead lap and as much as 17 laps ahead of the other guys. Unless we can find some way to improve the friendliness of shooting, in a few years we will suffering the consequences.

 

[dreever]

The biggest hurdle is to get the sectioning organizations to accept it and create an entry level class for it. Good luck with that. NBRSA will not accept IBS,or anyone Else's) cards for their matches. Same goes for Williamsport. IBS will accept NBRSA cards and for the Nationals almost were willing to accept Williamsports until they got tied up in rules and bureaucracy. With this in mind how would you get them all to accept a new class.
Another problem that will arise is the new "Entry level shooters" will invariably end up competing against the "professional caliber" entry level shooters. There will be some of superior ability that will see this as an easy place to compete and win. So does it just end up as another class where the "new guy" shoots one match and gets discouraged because he comes in 40th place out of 40 shooters. That's one of the things that's keeping young blood from coming in. Heck a first time eighteen year old guy with his store bought rifle signs up and has to compete against Tony Boyer. No ability classes in NBRSA, Williamsport, or IBS. Go to any NBRSA or IBS match and you'll find the average age is 50+.
Who also is going to inspect and police this class? Every club has the same problem. Everybody wants to shoot, and nobody wants to help. Match directors and range help are already run ragged so as it is now nobody weighs or inspects guns at regular matches so who's going to do this new job? The answer is nobody. So a guy slips in a 1.5 ounce Jewell trigger, or has a trued action, or is overweight by an ounce, or has a tight necked chamber,will all reamers have to be the same specs?)......you get the picture.
Don't get me wrong, I think the idea has merit but the hurdles to get there are pretty darn high and i wouldn't know where to start to overcome them.

Danny

 

[Forum Boss]

Danny,

You raise a lot of good points. I have some comments. While this class would hopefully appeal to novice shooters, it by no means has to be a novice only class. I fully expect a 16.5 lb rifle with Krieger/Broughton barrel and a Predator action would shoot pretty impressive groups at all distances if it's chambered in 6BR, 6XC, 6-6.5x47 etc. I would hope some of our top shooters would enjoy competing in the class.

I know some guys at my club who would really go for a rifle like this and would shoot it at 100, 300, and 600 -- all the distances my club offers.

In terms of cheaters,with tight necks, Jewell triggers etc.), I think it would be pretty easy to detect a Jewell if a Timney was the standard. And as for the tight neck--all guns could be required to chamber a .270"-diam. dummy round. And yes I see no reason why there shouldn't be a "Formula BR" approved reamer. That settles many questions right there.

- - -

MikeCR makes some very good comments also. But first, remember that there would still be plenty of "open development classes" including IBS LV/HV, NRA F-Class, that give someone who wants to innovate with different calibers/components ample opportunity.

I think if we look at other sports, particularly amateur car racing and sailboat racing, nearly all the open development classes have been, ultimately, failures. A class starts off with quite a bit of interest, then inevitably, the set-ups most people are using get bypassed by newer better and more expensive technology. Suddenly you have a $10K investment in a boat that can't win anything. In the car realm it was simply too expensive and time-consuming for individuals to create and maintain one-off prototypes. Meanwhile strict one-design classes have been thriving because the designs remain truely competitive for a much longer time and you are NOT trapped in a "hardware upgrade" game every season.

---

In this situation I think we might also find that a Formula BR would provide plenty of accuracy for the dollar and might even perform very close to a price-unlimited IBS/NBRSA Light Gun.

 

[RDesJardin]

This is a great idea. Bring in new ones and give existing guys something new to try too.
Here is my input:
Remember NASCAR is Ford, Dodge, Chevy and Toyota
Any Factory action, Rem, Sav. Win. Rug. etc.

6mmBR sounds good, or 7mmBR is there an advantage of one over the other except for bullets? No neck turn chamber, have a "template" that must chamber to be legal.

Bullets hasn't been addressed, there is a big cost for custom bullets. And this could be a great equalizer if you could have a spec'd type bullet. I know a way but I doubt it will be well recieved. Cannelures or maybe poly tips only this is a low cost class right.

24" barrel .850 muzzle 8 twist cause you want to shoot close and LR. You can use light bullets in a fast twist but not the other way around.

The same stock style but any mfg.'s stock. I think maybe a cross between HBR and Tactical style.

20X max. scope but a variable, list approved scope mfg.'s and models. Keep high end models out.

Gun Wt. I don't think this is a big debating point, build a gun with the spec'd parts and what does it weigh? That's the wt. then add maybe .5-1#.

This gun is a new "universal class" competition gun, not for use in all existing classes, just all existing disciplines. Maybe a real across the course gun. No flame intended.

How about targets, let's consider this 10 shots, 1 5-shot group and then 5 score bulls all on one target, do this 3 times then add it up.

Rory DesJardin

 

[Fred Bohl]

Paul

You know from prior exchanges that I'm in conceptual agreement with the basic concept.

I also think that you will have to start with a tighter spec set including picking an approved scope - yes one make & model to level the field and control cost. You'll also need to pick a front rest and rear bag combo also to control cost.

If you don't start with a full tight spec set you'll never be able to restrict it later without offending the current participants. Otherwise you'll just have the same rich mans equipment race that IBS and NBRSA have now.

The only way I can see this happening in the current real world is to find a group of sponsors and run matches independent of current sanctioning bodies.

 

[Forum Boss]

I just had a thought. Maybe we turn this "Sanctioning Body Conflict" thing on its head. This Formula BR one-design is a way the different organizations can act in concert without having to "give ground" to each other. It's not that we're trying to impose IBS rules on NBRSA or vice-versa. This would be something new, that could be shared by ALL--THE common class that Everyone can shoot everywhere. IBS doesn't have to change its existing classes, nor does the NBRSA, or Williamsport.

Since the new class comes in from a "grass-roots" effort, all three organizations,and the NRA for that matter) would be on equal footing. No single organization has to feel like they are being forced to "yield" to another organization. And, this could even offer an opportunity for the NRA and even ISSF to get involved in Benchrest,vs. conventional position shooting).

To my mind it could be a win, win deal. If the IBS says "yeah we'll let 'em shoot", why wouldn't NBRSA. And if the NBRSA goes along, why not Williamsport. And since the gun would meet current F-Class rules, the NRA should be happy. Nobody is asking those groups to "honor the cards" of other rival groups, merely to accept a new entry class embraced by all. Every group would get new, paying shooters and no single group feels that it has "won or lost" a struggle over regulatory turf or prestige.

Just "let 'em shoot" and collect the match fees. Is that so difficult?

 

[rudedog]

Paul
Lot's of ideas going on around here.

I think that 3 classes are needed for this to work well.
1st class any factory action,any stock,any weight,any trigger, any barrel,in 6mmbr,only factory ammo used,either Lapua or Norma.
My idea for this is will bring in shooters that already have guns built will only need to re-barrel their rifle,or re-chamber it
2nd class hand loaded ammo, this will help people in the 1st class see the improvements over factory ammo.Also it will help people on a budget,to see if they have a yearning to improve or stay in the 1st class.
3rd class any action any stock any barrel any caliber any weight,this will allow people with custom guns built to shoot also.
I really like the idea of different yardages being shot so i think that in any of the above classes being shot at a match,the same barrel should remain,on the same gun the hole match.This will help even out the playing field,at different yardages.
Just my 2 cents
Rudy Manuel

 

[dreever]

You still need the "Big Three" sanctioning bodies to throw out this notion that you have to be a card carrying member of that organization to shoot that day on that range. I for one will not pay yearly dues to NBRSA+IBS+Williamsport+ my local club dues just to shoot their matches! When you start adding up all of the organizations one pays dues to on a yearly basis,stuff like AARP, AAA, NRA,etc. etc.) it adds up to some serious money. It needs to be "no membership required" to shoot this class. Just pay your entry fee and that's it. This is one of the reasons that Varmint/Ground Hog matches are one of the fastest growing shooting sports. Walk in plop down your entry fee, and have fun. No "mandatory" $50 dues going to some sanctioning body somewhere just to compete even before you pay your entry fee. Most of them allow you to shoot ONCE before you MUST join. Thanks but no thanks. And why so much money? What do you get? A magazine? If you opt not to get the magazine it's a whooping five dollars less. What if I don't want to join, I just want the magazine? Will a years subscription then only cost me five dollars? LOL! What do you think?
Will it ever change? Very doubtful. It is a problem though for "entry level" new shooters that turns some away from the start.

Danny

 

[RDesJardin]

I think the Just let them shoot is what will be needed. I worry about the custom action side because a new guy is not going to wait months for a action that cost more than the gun he is currently using.
3 classes seem to much to start with although. If you want an all out custom there are existing classes for that. KISS principal I would guess is the key. We want new people to find it easy and inexpensive to get started. I know of many hunters that just plain won't even try because they are scare off my all the custom BR rigs shooting tiny groups. Help them get into it with a gun they can let's say use as a real varmint rig too. It will be justification of the money for them at the start. Maybe lots of polls concerning each aspect to start with to get it narrowed down. And don't leave any manufacturers out of it, as in don't spec a scope only Nikon makes, were wil that leave the Leupold and Weaver users, remember brand loyalty.
RD

 

[Forum Boss]

It needs to be "no membership required" to shoot this class. Just pay your entry fee and that's it. This is one of the reasons that Varmint/Ground Hog matches are one of the fastest growing shooting sports. Walk in plop down your entry fee, and have fun." -- Danny

KISS principle... is the key. We want new people to find it easy and inexpensive to get started. Help them get into it with a gun they can use as a real varmint rig too. It will be justification of the money for them at the start. --RD

Very important points. If the gun can do double duty as a real varminter--all the better!

 

[SPM]

I love the idea, though I have never shot bench rest comp. before. I have always wanted to shoot comp. but don't know where to start. I have built myself a 6mmbr for prairie dogs I would love to compete with, and would feel more comfortable doing so. Allot of newbie pressure would be taken off knowing everybody's equipment was equal. I personally rather get beat by someone who is better skilled than someone that won just because of the equipment advantage. Please don't get me wrong, I would love a high dollar rig to compete with, just cant afford it. This class would be right up my ally. SPM

 

[Shelley]

I'd be just fine with a new class but if I were going to get involved there are some thoughts on the subject.

Range: The only way that it makes sense for a range to go to the expense of having trophies made for a new and special class is to be assured that there's going to be enough competitors in that class, on a monthly basis, to make it worthwhile. At our Denton club matches we allow almost any rifle to compete but everyone is in the same class and the average rifle is a full race Benchrest rifle with all the goodies.

Actions: The Savage action, as made now, is not ideal for Benchrest because of the large diameter firing pin. Blanked primers are a problem in competitive hand loads and the 6BR is one of the worst offenders. I do think the Stiller and Lawton and other Rem 700 clones should be allowed.

Pre-fit barrels: I've checked the chambering jobs on the factory pre-fit barrels and the tolerances are pretty loose. The factories do a barrel in from five to 30 minutes, a BR smith will usually take at least three hours while keeping a 1/10,000" indicator in the barrel at frequent intervals. How could you ever keep a competitor from purchasing an after market barrel and getting it chambered by a BR smith who'll take his time and keep the tolerances at a couple of ten thousands.It'd be impossible to detect a $200.00 chambering job with a go/no-go type gauge but using a precision barreled rifle would be a huge advantage. I suppose my point is that you'd need to allow for custom fit barrels from the git go or there'd be a lot of un-detectable cheating going on.

I'd opt for the 6BR as a standard. It's fair at 100 yards and can be great at 600 yards and fair at 1000 yards. I have a 6.5X47 and it's not too great at 100 yards, great at 600 yards and I haven't tried it at 1000 yards yet.

Shelley

 

[Rustystud]

Paul:

I don't want to stop a good idea but are you not reinventing the wheel. We have a factory class, LV, and HV class then there is light LR, HR, classes. We have Palma and FTR in Long Range Prone.

We need to fill the classes we have before adding more.

Rustystud

 

[rayjay]

,,,,, though I have never shot bench rest comp. before. Allot of newbie pressure would be taken off knowing everybody's equipment was equal. I personally rather get beat by someone who is better skilled than someone that won just because of the equipment advantage. SPM

This is the real problem recruiting new shooters. Unrealistic expectations and fear of losing. I went to my first match [ this March ] expecting to finish last and I DID finish last, overall. I was 2nd in the factory class by .020" [ two shooters with factory rifles ]. There were lots of encouraging aspects to my performance but also lots of newbie mistakes to learn from so overall I was quite happy.

You should not even expect to place as a learning shooter. Go out expecting to finish last and you will be surprised at how little pressure there is. Set some easily attainable goals like :

I will not cross fire.

I will not get up from the bench with the bolt in the rifle.

No groups at 200 over 1.25"

No groups at 100 over .75"

Easily accomplished goals but still requiring concentration when starting a new endeavor.

I don't think a spec rifle class would create many new shooters. I have been involved in motorsports and shooting competitions since the mid 70's. The people that want to compete will come out with what ever they have. The rest are the ones that say "I always wanted to do that, BUT......" They always have a "but" ready to hand. I saw it in motorcycle racing, SCCA racing, revolver shooting and now CF & RF BR.

 

[mikecr]

What if there were a CG class,Carry Gun), which was completely open except for one equipment rule:
10.5lb weight limit
Ah, the great equalizer..

When I say 'open', I mean just that. No equipment or rest rules at all. No memberships. No disrespectful boundaries w/regard to potential skill or income level.
If needed, the rests could be included into a 'system weight limit' of ~30lbs. This would include all CARRIED to the bench, straight from the scale near the line.
With this, everything would take care of itself.

Any shooter bringing his favorite rifle would be treated respectfully, as he has as good of a chance as anyone else. The shooters winning in such a class will have learned it, and earned it. If not it's still assumed that he's gaining from this, as we all would. In time, great advancements would surely come about for real world guns to full blown rails.

I know you're pushing for a bridge between the horrible factory class and benchrest. Get realistic though. It'll never happen. If it could, it would fail to bring in shooters.
Rules, restrictions, prejudices and practicalities.
Where is the GAIN for the typical shooting enthusiast out there?
It isn't in a purpose built, bottom feeder, pretend-rifle thats too heavy to use in the field..