Finding the right seating depth

[SHootSTraight22]

Tim, I think I'm missing something here. How is Martin's seating depth of .012 good when it's all over the place? .008 looks better to me. dedogs

I agree!!! .012 is all over the place!! If this is as good as the shooter/gun combo will group I would go with something between touching to .004-.008...This gun is really shooting best from touching to .008 it's obvious! What I would really do is reshoot this test from touching to atleast .030 off in .003 increments... Then I would choose the series of shots that are all hitting within the same point of impact like a OCW test.... I would choose one of the longest loads to shoot so I know I will hit the same spot as the barrel wears... Simple easy!!!

I'm not sure what is meant by all over the place? We don't know if Martin dialed his scope over for wind age or not. To me it doesn't matter. I'll take 3 touching with no paper between them any day. The vertical location on the the groups at that depth look good.
I don't mind at all to answer any question that I can. Not trying to say I'm some great shooting guru. But I would like to share what I've learned over the last few years
Some of you may not be to familiar with a PPC. Which I think from the powder weight of N133 is what Martin is shooting. It is common to see them go from a horizontal slot to a vertical slot .5 grain of powder a part.
Please let me know the train of thought that the .008 depth with probably a 3/4-1" group is better than the .012 depth at 29.9 is a 3 shot group in the .1s at 200 yards!
The pic is posted in landscape, but I'm thinking he shot it stapled up in the portrait position
Picture it rotated 90 degrees clockwise.

I think we had a misunderstanding.. I don't know about dedogs comment but when I said it was all over the place I just ment that "all three groups should have been impacting at the same spot on each target.." I think we all are reading targets differently here.. I was just looking for a seating depth that seemed to hit the same area over a few different lengths.. I tried to explain it with my target posted.. I hope it can help some.. I didn't mean to cause a controversy..

 

[martin22250]

My picture is turned wrong. I was shooting n133 and berger column bullets, and shooting in a left to right cross wind. I was not holding for any condition change. I had terrible mirage that day but it was my only free day to test for a while.You can see how the bullets blew right and a little low.I started at a very light touch of the lands and moved in the lands .004 at a time (.003 would have been better). I think jumping the bullets is to finicky day in and day out. I started out like tim said just picking a depth and testing charge weights. Once I would find a good powder charge I would play with seating depth again and it never would improve. Also temp swings would throw me out of tune easy. I also like a little vertical in my groups. I found that out when I first started shooting the ppc looking at a day of practice targets normally the groups that was a little vertical was smaller than the flat ones that was wide. After reading Tony boyer's book I have learned a lot about the wind and tuning as what tim has tried to show. Some loads on a calm day blow up on a windy day I learned the hard way.

 

[SHootSTraight22]

My picture is turned wrong. I was shooting n133 and berger column bullets, and shooting in a left to right cross wind. I was not holding for any condition change. I had terrible mirage that day but it was my only free day to test for a while.You can see how the bullets blew right and a little low.I started at a very light touch of the lands and moved in the lands .004 at a time (.003 would have been better). I think jumping the bullets is to finicky day in and day out. I started out like tim said just picking a depth and testing charge weights. Once I would find a good powder charge I would play with seating depth again and it never would improve. Also temp swings would throw me out of tune easy. I also like a little vertical in my groups. I found that out when I first started shooting the ppc looking at a day of practice targets normally the groups that was a little vertical was smaller than the flat ones that was wide. After reading Tony boyer's book I have learned a lot about the wind and tuning as what tim has tried to show. Some loads on a calm day blow up on a windy day I learned the hard way.

I honestly don't know anything about tuning in the wind.. My comment to Tim earlier was my way of joking, because I couldn't stop visualizing someone truly anal (like medically anal) reading this then shooting there barrel out trying to confirm... I just thought it maybe something that didn't need to be worried to much about.. I couldn't stop thinking about someone like that taking the fun out of shooting for themselves... I didn't mean anything personal and I even stated that when I posted... I ment exactly what I said and this maybe like a "dog chasen after his own tail!" But, at the same time if the top bench guys are confirming something about tuning in the wind, then I would like to learn.. I need to learn! When I stop learning I'll be dead or brain dead!!

 

[dedogs]

Tim Singleton and Martin, Thank you for the clarification-- I didn't even think about the target being rotated.
This has been a very informative thread for the most part and I would like to thank you for sharing these insights. Still have a lot to learn obviously. dedogs

 

[Brians356]

... Martin, Thank you for the clarification-- I didn't even think about the target being rotated.

And why would anyone think of it? Why would someone present a target which is rotated for analysis without mentioning that?

 

[Tim Singleton]

I'm sure it just didn't register with him. He has probably done this test so much it didn't register.
That's the way this particular test is formatted. Powder changes across the top seating depth changes down the page. It's second nature to see it after you've used this method for a while. But for sure would not be recognized if you weren't familiar with it

 

[martin22250]

Check out this 5 shot group at 200 yards shot by Matt Owens at the east west shoot out this year. It's being reviewed for a world record. I doubt I will ever see one that small the rest of my life. By the way it's turned wrong.
Dustin

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Matt is one of my guys. I hope that record goes thru as the backers were made from bud light boxes.

 

[dedogs]

That is MIGHTY FINE SHOOTIN'!!

 

[ridgeway]

... Martin, Thank you for the clarification-- I didn't even think about the target being rotated.

And why would anyone think of it? Why would someone present a target which is rotated for analysis without mentioning that?

I automatically assumed it was rotated. Easy mistake especially when taking then pulling off the camera and uploading.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

... Martin, Thank you for the clarification-- I didn't even think about the target being rotated.

And why would anyone think of it? Why would someone present a target which is rotated for analysis without mentioning that?

I automatically assumed it was rotated. Easy mistake especially when taking then pulling off the camera and uploading.

I think we should burn at the stake and take away all posting abilities anyone who would dare rotate a picture. I know i was one of the mouth breathers that looked at it like a pig looking at a wristwatch lol ;D

 

[Tim Singleton]

Check out this 5 shot group at 200 yards shot by Matt Owens at the east west shoot out this year. It's being reviewed for a world record. I doubt I will ever see one that small the rest of my life. By the way it's turned wrong.
Dustin

If I were a betting man. I would bet Matt uses a similar method like we have been discussing to find his seating depth

 

[DanSavage]

I was reading more of Boyer's book and he talks about adding a little bit of vertical to the load to enable better wind bucking ability.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I was reading more of Boyer's book and he talks about adding a little bit of vertical to the load to enable better wind bucking ability.

Yep others may argue the point but IMO it's proven.
Look back on this thread to post 21
A completely flat tune vs one with a little vertical

 

[DanSavage]

I've come to believe the most accurate way to do load development at this level after doing some research is to not shoot the test round robin style.

The reason is that a guy would have to move to a different target for every shot,, when if one shoots a single group at a time per target he is able to keep his form better and be more repeatable.

 

[Tim Singleton]

I've come to believe the most accurate way to do load development at this level after doing some research is to not shoot the test round robin style.

The reason is that a guy would have to move to a different target for every shot,, when if one shoots a single group at a time per target he is able to keep his form better and be more repeatable.

Absolutely, I think so

 

[M14AMU]

It's a slow process that youngsters aren't accustomed to called PATIENCE!! :

 

[Tim Singleton]

New barrel with seating depth testing from yesterday. This is a pretty good shooter.
I'm gonna screw it off and save for the Shamrock. Further demonstrates the importance of seating depth

 

[dedogs]

Tim, Is 28.5g @ -.011 a 3 shot group? dedogs

 

[Tim Singleton]

Tim, Is 28.5g @ -.011 a 3 shot group? dedogs

Yea, it is
29 was a little to hot it was giving the two and one at .008 off and .011