Finding the right seating depth

[Tim Singleton]

So Tim, from your observations how does adjusting seating depth for wind affect groups in light to no wind?

I just find it harder to find the optimal depth. In light to no wind.
It is more demonstrative on the target. For me anyway in windy conditions. In the seating depth target in post 1 the .003 and .006 wouldn't show the horizontal that they do in a very calm or light condition.

 

[savagedasher]

I use seating depth with a chronograph when tuning. As far as no wind condition I don't tune then. How small the gun shoots in now wind conditions means nothing.
The bullet I shoot like to be jumped. .015 is the least jump. .025 is average . I try to find the seating depth range where my bests ES is .
Powder drop is related to vertical. But powder drop can cause horizontal in some tune.
With low ES and some vertical or horizontal. Then I let the TUNER do the rest. Normally a tuner will correct 3/8 of a inch of both.
Tuners moves the impact of a bullet both horizontal and vertical. With a tuner you will find 4 areas where the bullet changes direction. Each time the bullet changes direction is a tune. I have found bullets that change off the point of aim right or left up and down in excess of 3/8 of a inch. just moving the tuner ring. MY preference in a tune is where the bullet is upper right from the point of aim . Works best in the wind that I normally shoot in.. Tuned that way I have a gun that has the club record small at 300 and 600 yard. Won many 600 and 1018 gong matches.
Like I said I use seating depth for finding my lowest ES .
I know I can go to a shoot with confidence that my load will work. If it isn't correct with a Tuner I can make it work. Larry

 

[Tim Singleton]

Shouldn't you choose .003 and 29.5 because it has virtually no height error. And horizontal spread could be wind?

you are right. That seating depth was shooting flat and wind sensitive. I'm looking for a load that can give me some forgive in the wind.
This particular afternoon of testing the wind was steady cross from Right to left. With varying intensity. I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red and didn't get into any angling condition I shot the test groups in that cross wind condition. And let them fall where they may. Looking for the best seating depth that will shoot well in a little wind.
There is something to what Benperfected said. An unstable bullet will cut an oblong hole in the paper indicating it was not stable

 

[SHootSTraight22]

I learned from a guy that shoots with Team Berger to,,, Find jamm, then back the load out in .003 incrememnts as far as you want... I go about .040 off just to see what my rifles telling me.. The best load for me also isn't the tighest group (because once barrel wear starts you have to chase lands) but is where you see the load hitting tight and in the same place for multible lengths (kind of like a OCW Test shows),, then you would choose the longest seating depth load (the one at the beginning of the seating depth accuracy node) so you have plenty of time hitting bullseyes before the barrel wears back beyond that last point noted (seating depth.)

 

[Spike A]

i would say most of us use very similar Technics in finding seating depth, however there are also other things that also come into account. I have heard many people argue that certain calibers are less prone to seating depth issues than others which may very well be the case i consider myself a young re loader and therefore do not have a ton of experience with many different calibers or guns (7-8 calibers). but i know this is a little off of topic ?, but how do you guys feel or go about seating depth with rifles that are designed to have lands that are too far out to touch? i have a hard time grasping how more freebore is better. i know a lot of the vanguards have a ton of freebore. the rifle i can into an issue with is an h&r in 243 ( not my gun my friend was complaining of accuracy issues with factory loads so i thought i would mess around with it and found that i cant tough the lands with 90 gr bullets) ?

 

[SHootSTraight22]

i would say most of us use very similar Technics in finding seating depth, however there are also other things that also come into account. I have heard many people argue that certain calibers are less prone to seating depth issues than others which may very well be the case i consider myself a young re loader and therefore do not have a ton of experience with many different calibers or guns (7-8 calibers). but i know this is a little off of topic ?, but how do you guys feel or go about seating depth with rifles that are designed to have lands that are too far out to touch? i have a hard time grasping how more freebore is better. i know a lot of the vanguards have a ton of freebore. the rifle i can into an issue with is an h&r in 243 ( not my gun my friend was complaining of accuracy issues with factory loads so i thought i would mess around with it and found that i cant tough the lands with 90 gr bullets) ?

I would just shoot 105gr hybrids... Since a lot of people have success with them off lands a good .020-.040...

 

[jsthntn247]

Shouldn't you choose .003 and 29.5 because it has virtually no height error. And horizontal spread could be wind?

you are right. That seating depth was shooting flat and wind sensitive. I'm looking for a load that can give me some forgive in the wind.
This particular afternoon of testing the wind was steady cross from Right to left. With varying intensity. I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red and didn't get into any angling condition I shot the test groups in that cross wind condition. And let them fall where they may. Looking for the best seating depth that will shoot well in a little wind.
There is something to what Benperfected said. An unstable bullet will cut an oblong hole in the paper indicating it was not stable

Seems that your calling a load with horizontal dispersion "wind sensitive". Has nothing to do with the wind, it's all about barrel harmonics and you tune it out by adjusting seating depth.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Shouldn't you choose .003 and 29.5 because it has virtually no height error. And horizontal spread could be wind?

you are right. That seating depth was shooting flat and wind sensitive. I'm looking for a load that can give me some forgive in the wind.
This particular afternoon of testing the wind was steady cross from Right to left. With varying intensity. I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red and didn't get into any angling condition I shot the test groups in that cross wind condition. And let them fall where they may. Looking for the best seating depth that will shoot well in a little wind.
There is something to what Benperfected said. An unstable bullet will cut an oblong hole in the paper indicating it was not stable

Seems that your calling a load with horizontal dispersion "wind sensitive". Has nothing to do with the wind, it's all about barrel harmonics and you tune it out by adjusting seating depth.

Again the point of the post was to shed light for some on the importance of a structure to find the best seating depth.
We will have to agree to disagree on whether a load can be wind sensitive.
I'll stick with what I have been taught. So far it's working out pretty well

 

[Tim Singleton]

Shouldn't you choose .003 and 29.5 because it has virtually no height error. And horizontal spread could be wind?

you are right. That seating depth was shooting flat and wind sensitive. I'm looking for a load that can give me some forgive in the wind.
This particular afternoon of testing the wind was steady cross from Right to left. With varying intensity. I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red and didn't get into any angling condition I shot the test groups in that cross wind condition. And let them fall where they may. Looking for the best seating depth that will shoot well in a little wind.
There is something to what Benperfected said. An unstable bullet will cut an oblong hole in the paper indicating it was not stable

Bullet instability is all about a lack of gyroscopic and/or dynamic stability, not sub-optimal seating depth. Optimizing seating depth will not make an unstable bullet become stable. Moving a fully stabilized bullet out of its optimal seating depth will not make it unstable, either. At sub-optimal seating depths, the increase in group angular dispersion is a function of barrel harmonics, not bullet instability. I'm not trying to be contentious here, but if there is a valid explanation as to how seating depth can affect resistance to wind deflection, I'd be very interested to learn more about it.

I don't take it as being contentious
As far as validity. It shows on the target for me. When I'm watching my flags let up and pickup and the bullet is following or not following as much that's all I need to know.

Perhaps I should have never mentioned the wind sensitive aspect.
The point is to offer for the new guys that don't have a method an idea of how important seating depth is and a method to find it

 

[SHootSTraight22]

Shouldn't you choose .003 and 29.5 because it has virtually no height error. And horizontal spread could be wind?

you are right. That seating depth was shooting flat and wind sensitive. I'm looking for a load that can give me some forgive in the wind.
This particular afternoon of testing the wind was steady cross from Right to left. With varying intensity. I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red and didn't get into any angling condition I shot the test groups in that cross wind condition. And let them fall where they may. Looking for the best seating depth that will shoot well in a little wind.
There is something to what Benperfected said. An unstable bullet will cut an oblong hole in the paper indicating it was not stable

Bullet instability is all about a lack of gyroscopic and/or dynamic stability, not sub-optimal seating depth. Optimizing seating depth will not make an unstable bullet become stable. Moving a fully stabilized bullet out of its optimal seating depth will not make it unstable, either. At sub-optimal seating depths, the increase in group angular dispersion is a function of barrel harmonics, not bullet instability. I'm not trying to be contentious here, but if there is a valid explanation as to how seating depth can affect resistance to wind deflection, I'd be very interested to learn more about it.

I don't take it as being contentious
As far as validity. It shows on the target for me. When I'm watching my flags let up and pickup and the bullet is following or not following as much that's all I need to know.

Perhaps I should have never mentioned the wind sensitive aspect.
The point is to offer for the new guys that don't have a method an idea of how important seating depth is and a method to find it

With all due respect Tim , I don't think new guys should here this theory about "certain seating depths being effected by wind" MORE THAN OTHERS... I've noticed on many reloading/gun forums that new guys tend to take a lot of this stuff as religion and it causes them to be over anal with their methods (resulting in loss of fun...) Plus, they start trying to argue things like this with their full believe and passion, not realizing the person they're arguing with has had a gun in their hand since they came off their mothers tit.. Not counting they've been reloading since prepuperty.. All a man has to do is swing over to the "Hide" to see what I'm talking about.. The real minds are over here!!!

 

[Tim Singleton]

Shouldn't you choose .003 and 29.5 because it has virtually no height error. And horizontal spread could be wind?

you are right. That seating depth was shooting flat and wind sensitive. I'm looking for a load that can give me some forgive in the wind.
This particular afternoon of testing the wind was steady cross from Right to left. With varying intensity. I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red and didn't get into any angling condition I shot the test groups in that cross wind condition. And let them fall where they may. Looking for the best seating depth that will shoot well in a little wind.
There is something to what Benperfected said. An unstable bullet will cut an oblong hole in the paper indicating it was not stable

Bullet instability is all about a lack of gyroscopic and/or dynamic stability, not sub-optimal seating depth. Optimizing seating depth will not make an unstable bullet become stable. Moving a fully stabilized bullet out of its optimal seating depth will not make it unstable, either. At sub-optimal seating depths, the increase in group angular dispersion is a function of barrel harmonics, not bullet instability. I'm not trying to be contentious here, but if there is a valid explanation as to how seating depth can affect resistance to wind deflection, I'd be very interested to learn more about it.

I don't take it as being contentious
As far as validity. It shows on the target for me. When I'm watching my flags let up and pickup and the bullet is following or not following as much that's all I need to know.

Perhaps I should have never mentioned the wind sensitive aspect.
The point is to offer for the new guys that don't have a method an idea of how important seating depth is and a method to find it

With all due respect Tim , I don't think new guys should here this theory about "certain seating depths being effected by wind" MORE THAN OTHERS... I've noticed on many reloading/gun forums that new guys tend to take a lot of this stuff as religion and it causes them to be over anal with their methods (resulting in loss of fun...) Plus, they start trying to argue things like this with their full believe and passion, not realizing the person they're arguing with has had a gun in their hand since they came off their mothers tit.. Not counting they've been reloading since prepuperty.. All a man has to do is swing over to the "Hide" to see what I'm talking about.. The real minds are over here!!!

As I said perhaps I should have never mentioned it.

The basic point of the post is accruate. On the importance of finding the right seating depth for thexample bullet being used. And a method to get there
I will not debate further the wind aspect. Again results I've gotten are enough for me. I'll keep it to myself and roll on. Hope to see you guys at a match soon

 

[Brians356]

[I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red

May I ask a newbie question (out of ignorance of wind flag parlance, I don't compete)? What does "stayed red" refer to?

 

[Tim Singleton]

[I purposefully didn't hold for these small pickups and let ups in the intensity as long as the stayed red

May I ask a newbie question (out of ignorance of wind flag parlance, I don't compete)? What does "stayed red" refer to?

I shot 100-200 yard group most wind flags are red on one side and green on the other.
Red would be a right to left condition

 

[daniel brothers]

Tim... I get it... it makes perfect sense to me.

The correct powder charge... along with the BEST seating depth... will produce the BEST harmonics.... which produces the BEST flight through the wind because of it being MORE STABLE.... thus being LESS WIND SENSITIVE.... the wind helps to reveal unstable bullets.

Keep it up Tim... it's helped me a lot.

 

[DanSavage]

I have a question Tim,, In Tony's book it doesn't mention shooting round robin. Do you think it would make more sense to shoot it round robin so that the wind variances can be spread out through out the test?

Second question. What wind condition would be best for this test?

I've got my target all set up, I'm switching back to the Hornady' 105's now all I have to do is load them up!

Regard's

Dan

 

[Tim Singleton]

I have a question Tim,, In Tony's book it doesn't mention shooting round robin. Do you think it would make more sense to shoot it round robin so that the wind variances can be spread out through out the test?

Second question. What wind condition would be best for this test?

I've got my target all set up, I'm switching back to the Hornady' 105's now all I have to do is load them up!

Regard's

Dan

I am not familiar with the round robin method
Don't get to concerned about trying to shoot in the wind in testing right away. I wish I had not mentioned it. I hated to get derailed from the subject.
I will say I do not get up at day break and get to the range to test in the dead calm. This is of no value to me. Just test when you can if you don't have any flags use some surveyor ribbon on stakes

Good shooting
Tim

 

[Brians356]

All a man has to do is swing over to the "Hide" to see what I'm talking about.. The real minds are over here!!!

Wannabee snipers just want to be loved, too. Is that so wrong?

 

[Brians356]

Don't get to concerned about the wind in testing right away. I wish I had not mentioned it. I hated to get derailed from the subject.
I will say I do not get up at day break and get to the range to test in the dead calm. This is of no value to me. Just test when you can if you don't have any flags use some surveyor ribbon on stakes

You've said you don't worry (not much, at least) about the wind if the seating depth is correct, since it will be nearly immune to wind deflection.

But you're also saying you do use wind flags while trying to develop that wind-resistant load, since otherwise how will you know it's wind-resistant?

I'm sure you'll forgive those of us who might have been at least temporarily confused. And perhaps I still am.

 

[Tim Singleton]

Don't get to concerned about the wind in testing right away. I wish I had not mentioned it. I hated to get derailed from the subject.
I will say I do not get up at day break and get to the range to test in the dead calm. This is of no value to me. Just test when you can if you don't have any flags use some surveyor ribbon on stakes

You've said you don't worry (not much, at least) about the wind if the seating depth is correct, since it will be nearly immune to wind deflection.

But you're also saying you do use wind flags while trying to develop that wind-resistant load, since otherwise how will you know it's wind-resistant?

I'm sure you'll forgive those of us who might have been at least temporarily confused. And perhaps I still am.

We're getting way off track here. I didn't anywhere say I didn't use flags. I said I don't hold off for a slight changes in the intensity while doing this test. I stated I didn't just disregard my flags. No where is the word immune used. Please slow down a little and re read the OP.

When that test was conducted the predominated wind condition that afternoon was Red a right to left wind varying in intensity i.e. Pickup and let up. All I'm saying is I do not hold over for these let ups and pickups while doing this test. But I do not just try to shoot thru a reverse in wind direction while testing.

 

[Brians356]

We're getting way off track here.

Well, it's your thread, Tim. Just asking for clarification of a concept I'd not heard about before, to wit: that seating depth can be tuned to make a load (how shall I say it, then?) "wind insensitive".

Please slow down a little ...

I'm not even moving.